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General Erection - 12th December 2019


mr.hobblesworth

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7 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Your point as usual completely misses the whole point...

Regal said that people voted Tory in 2015 because they promised a referendum.  Now if you are saying that's true then you are a liar.  Nobody apart from the Tory eurosceptics that had been hampering Cameron for some time gave a damn about Europe at the 2015 Election, it was way down the list of what issues people most cared about, that's a fact as it goes.

There were lots and lots of things in the manifesto that nobody cared about enough to sway a vote.

As usual Geo, you make yourself look a bit daft trying to unsuccessfully adopt neutral ground.

Geo is totally spot on. It was in the manifesto which may or may not persuaded people to vote Conservative so therefor it should be followed through. May promised capital gains cuts and Austerity in her manifesto yet that wasn’t followed through and Boris promised to raise the high rate tax band to 80k and as of yet there is no signs of that being implemented, Corbyn promised the world on his last manifesto which would never have been implemented. 

Respect for Cameron for following through what he promised on his manifesto and he did this because of the rising population of UKIP so there was a lot of eurosceptics before the referendum demanding change and this was only going to increase until eventually somebody would have had to agree to a referendum.

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1 hour ago, Nofinikea said:

I am much older than you seem to think but not as old as you.  

I can only echo Hobbles comments, you are a Tory who thinks about it and it makes for interesting reading and is thought provoking.

The others, I am afraid are just contemptuous.

Thank you for your comments. Just to back up the thought provoking theme, try this very interesting link from The Financial Times about the 1976 Labour/IMF crisis to see exactly what I was trying to get across;

https://www.ft.com/content/3b583050-d277-11e6-b06b-680c49b4b4c0

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4 hours ago, Andyregs said:

I think it’s also fair to say that young people find it a bit much to have an older generation tell them your don’t understand’ while they are crippled with student debt that their parents didn’t have, will have to work longer for a probably smaller cut of what they pay in, find it much harder to get a house and are the first generation to be worse off than their parents.

In the 70s only about 10% of the population had the opportunity to go to university so the student debt thing is a bit of a red herring.

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21 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Hahahha  what a weirdo.

He wasnt elected on any such thing.  During that election Europe wasn't an issue for anyone.  You show me anybody who says they voted for Tory in 2015 because they promised a ref and I will show you a liar.

Well he was, it was clear as day in the 2015 manifesto.

Unless you are saying that it was an unimportant part of the manifesto and therefore did not need to be followed then I honestly don't understand your point.

The Lib Dems promised an EU in/out referendum in 2010 and I've already proven that Euroscepticism has risen in this country in the decade before the elction.

Was it the main talking point? Probably not, was it an issue for some? Definitely. Even so, it's quite an irrelevant point you are making.

21 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

So your decision to vote to leave was made because you thought leave would win? 

No?

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11 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Your point as usual completely misses the whole point...

Regal said that people voted Tory in 2015 because they promised a referendum.  Now if you are saying that's true then you are a liar.  Nobody apart from the Tory eurosceptics that had been hampering Cameron for some time gave a damn about Europe at the 2015 Election, it was way down the list of what issues people most cared about, that's a fact as it goes.

There were lots and lots of things in the manifesto that nobody cared about enough to sway a vote.

As usual Geo, you make yourself look a bit daft trying to unsuccessfully adopt neutral ground.

I said he was elected on a promise to hold a referendum.

Was he elected? Yes

Did he promise a referendum before 2017? Yes

Did I say it was the only reason (or even a significant reason, or even a reason at all) for people to vote tory? No.

 

 

Furthermore, UKIP had come second in 2009 EU elections and first in the 2014 EU elections. Polls throughout 2013 and 2014 shows significant support for leaving the EU even in polls where there was a remain majority - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Polls_of_polls

It is simply not true to suggest that no one cared about the EU membership pre 2016.

 

Not only are you wrong about what I said/meant, you would also be wrong, even if you were right about what I said. Amazing.

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3 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

No he isnt and why is it a ball ache to get folk on here to understand the point....  are you all wannabe MPs or something?

NOBODY voted for Tory in 2015 because they promised a referendum.  You are a liar if you say you did.

How can you possibly reach that conclusion when UKIP won the 2014 EU Elections?

 

What you are saying is almost certainly untrue and at the very least it is impossible for you to prove. You have no right to call anyone else a liar I'm afraid.

 

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2 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

At the time of the 2015 election the issue of the EU was 5th on the list of what people were most concerned about.  5th!  Nobody elected Cameron because he promised a referendum, nobody.  The EU elections have been used as protest votes against government for ages.  If the Euro scepticism was rising and UKIP were doing so well, where were all there elected MPs?  Its folly to suggest it was anything but a side show prior to the referendum which is why it's so mystifying why suddenly some of you would rather die in a ditch than stay in the EU.

Yeah just keep repeating the same ludicrous claims with zero evidence.

 

It's a totally bizarre point you are trying to make here anyway. Even if you are right (you are definitely wrong) it doesn't even matter.

 

As your last point, it's one of your twisted logic mental leaps. You do realise we elected the tories and we voted to leave? How much more evidence of euroscepticism do you need? It has been steadily growing over the previous 10-15 years to a point where UKIP were WINNING national elections. Literally a one policy party on leaving the EU were winning national elections years  before you say anyone cared.

 

Truth is you are hopelessly wrong about this. It's weird because it doesn't even matter anyway.

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2 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

See what I have already posted.  If there was so much groundswell towards wanting out of the EU, where were the cascade of UKIP MPs being elected in the 2015 election and of you think that folk didnt vote UKIP because Dave promised a referendum you deserve nothing but contempt.

I like how you've switch from personal abuse and bullying to "contempt" although I didn't find your comments to Bill absolutely laughable considering your history of abusive langauge in this thread.

 

Who is talking about "groundswell" and "cascades of UKIP MPs being elected"? It's you.

 

I'm saying the amount of people who wanted to leave the EU was at least a significant minority in 2014 and was only increasing. UKIP won the EU elections.

 

What would a "cascade" of UKIP MPs show?

 

 

 

I'll spell it out nice and simply for you. YOU made the claim that NOONE voted for the tories because of the EU/Referendum issue in 2015. I don't believe you have any evidence and I don't believe evidence exists. I actually believe that the only evidence we do have points strongly to a sharp increase in Euroscepticism around that time which means that it's highly likely that SOME people AT LEAST voted on these grounds.

 

As I've already said though, it doesn't matter in the slightest because I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make. The only thing I do know is that you are wrong.

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Lets just put this one to bed shall we:

Here's a video from QT in 2013 where audience members are quite clearly in favour of a referendum. Amazingly, Jo Swinson and Diane Abbott also feature and both agree that a referendum is needed (although they didn't agree when). In fact, Diane said she hoped it would be part of the Labour manifesto and the Lib Dems had already made it part of their manifesto in 2010.

 

Here's another one from 2013, watch this one and tell me that UKIP was a protest vote and that no one cared about the EU issue before 2015. There's audience members pleading with Hammond to back a referendum in 2015.

 

 

Let me know if you need any more, there's loads.

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what the hell, I'll stick another one in just for a laugh

Caroline Lucas agreeing with Sir Nige that people should have a say. It's a shame when it comes to actioning the people's wishes that the people in these videos are not quite so agreeable.

Remainer liars, lying before the the referendum was a glint in Nigel's eye. Who would have thought it.

 

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8 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

No he isnt and why is it a ball ache to get folk on here to understand the point....  are you all wannabe MPs or something?

NOBODY voted for Tory in 2015 because they promised a referendum.  You are a liar if you say you did.

If NOBODY voted Tory because of a referendum what exactly did they vote for?

You must know.

I have no idea why people voted the way they did, I can guess..... hard core party members, any party, will vote for the party they support, which accounts for a large proportion of the electorate..... any party relies on this hard core support to give them a chance of winning..... unless the manifesto contains something stupid like scraping pensions it's almost irrelevant to the hard core because their view is already set...... the middle ground, the undecided etc are where elections are won, if a party can pull in those votes...... that's where the manifestos play their part. They bolster the hard core and attract the middle undecided...... sadly once the election has been decided the manifesto gets recycled into what's delivered..... of course the opposition rarely let you forget the content.

Manifestos and election campaigns are designed to buy votes..... usually based on the premis they are bad we are good..... what parties don't want you to do is dig deep and think.... if you do you would probably come to the conclusion they are all crap.

If you had to have a rat's ass for some reason, its not a choice it's mandatory, and after 4 years you discover your rat's ass had gonorrhoea would you swap it for one with syphilis? 

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On 08/11/2019 at 04:39, Nofinikea said:

Hahahha  what a weirdo.

He wasnt elected on any such thing.  During that election Europe wasn't an issue for anyone.  You show me anybody who says they voted for Tory in 2015 because they promised a ref and I will show you a liar.

Show me anyone who claims they know how I voted..... let alone why I voted.....  you will have found a moron.

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