General Erection - 12th December 2019

[Jacko51]

I remember the 70s. They weren’t nice. Mortgage interest rates at 15%. Inflation reaching 26% due in part to oil prices but also to crazy wage inflation. Regular strikes culminating in the 1979 winter of discontent. I admit to voting for Thatcher then I was so fed up with it all. 

[geosname]

3 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Your point as usual completely misses the whole point...

Regal said that people voted Tory in 2015 because they promised a referendum.  Now if you are saying that's true then you are a liar.  Nobody apart from the Tory eurosceptics that had been hampering Cameron for some time gave a damn about Europe at the 2015 Election, it was way down the list of what issues people most cared about, that's a fact as it goes.

There were lots and lots of things in the manifesto that nobody cared about enough to sway a vote.

As usual Geo, you make yourself look a bit daft trying to unsuccessfully adopt neutral ground.

The whole point is it was part of their manifesto..... it's what they were selling and people bought it.... things don't have to be "at the top of the list"..... the list you talk about was probably from a poll.... they don't make facts.

The liberals wanted one.... even Labour did.... where as the public tend to get told what they want.

I am neutral in the sense I do not support either side of the political divide... they are both crap and lie.... both sides in their extremes are very damaging.... the Tories with less control and Labour with more control..... I dislike both.

I don't think choosing the least worst is good enough anymore.

[Andyregs]

24 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Bill, how did Labour cause a global financial crisis?

 

Don’t expect an answer as it’s become the ‘go to’ bad faith argument. 

[geosname]

1 hour ago, Bycarsbill said:

Yes it is, as the blame fell fairly & squarely on the shoulders of the last 2 Labour governments and it has taken over 10 years to get out of the financial mess that they created and then left for us.

On one hand you complain about austerity, yet on the other you fail to understand that it was Labour's public spending profligacy that made those savings necessary in the first place.  There's a good "teach youself economics" book I could recommend to you!  Once again, I will refer you to my previous posts on this topic, where I spell out just what a mess we were in as a country financially in 2010. 

I don't know how old you are, but I'm (unfortunately) old enough to have been around when, following  the Harold Wilson/ Jim Callaghan years Labour governments (as they always do) once again left us in dire straits and in the financial doo doo!  Don't take my word for it, just do a bit of historical reseach and you'll find out.  Try Dennis Healey/IMF as a starter and you'll start to see what Labour does to the finances of this country when we are foolish enough as an electorate to hand them the keys to the treasury. I promise you, that to have been there and lived through these desperate times --exchange controls on your money, no credit (or mortgages allowed) inflation at almost 19% and borrowing rates at nearly 16%--it ain't pleasant!

If you do the research, you'll no doubt have a better understanding of why I, and many people of my age, do not wish to live under another Labour administration. The conservatives are far from blame-free, but historically (and check me out again) Tory governments tend not to trash the economy, but usually have to sweep up the fianancial mess left behind by successive Labour administrations.  That's why the prospect of a Labour government led by Corbyn & McDonnell promising to take levels of spending to the heights last seen during those terrible 1970's, frightens the s*1t out of me and many of my age.   I'm almost as worried by the promises being made this time around by Sajid Javid who seems hell-bent on matching Labour's unsustainable spending promises. I have no wish to live uner any administration, Labour or Conservative that fails to learn the lessons from what I thought were those far-off dark and financially-troubled years!

I remember the 50s 60s 70s 80s..... the least said the better

[geosname]

29 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Does anyone believe a thing that the LibDems have to say? These stupid barcharts they produce are just lies upon lies. Is it party policy for them to deliberately mislead voters? It doesn't look like the public is falling for it, no matter how hard they try to hoodwink the electorate.

Not a damned  word

[geosname]

33 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Bill, how did Labour cause a global financial crisis? Also, why was Gordon Brown widely credited by world leaders for averting a far worse financial crisis?

 

They didn't cause it

[Mario]

11 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

I remember the 70s. They weren’t nice. Mortgage interest rates at 15%. Inflation reaching 26% due in part to oil prices but also to crazy wage inflation. Regular strikes culminating in the 1979 winter of discontent. I admit to voting for Thatcher then I was so fed up with it all. 

That would be the winter of discontent which led to bodies being stacked up in mortuary's, household rubbish stacked up not getting collected for weeks,I have no real political allegiance,I have voted Labour and Conservative,those Labour administrations  led to the Blair years who realised that Labour were unelectable under its previous left leaning manifesto's,I have said before there would be no need for Thatcher or Cameron/May if the socialists could balance the books, and looking at Corbyns spending plans I fear they have not learned anything.

There will be whole generations who don't know what it's like living with power cuts at tea time,strikes at the drop of a hat and mortgage rates going up almost daily lets hope and pray it doesn't come to that again.

[Bycarsbill]

32 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

That's all well and good and historically we can point to every administration.  However, you fail to consider the financial crash which was world wide that led to the sky rocketing in borrowing circa 2008.  Had the Tories been in at that time the exact same would have happened and its churlish to pretend it wouldnt.

I do not buy the idea that this is still New Labours mess 9 years on.  9 years of slashing and cuts and it hasnt really worked has it.

The cuts were not fair.  They effected the vulnerable disproportionately to the rich.  They failed to regulate adequately amongst the elite whilst removing services from those that rely on them.  Dave said we were in it together, that was the biggest load of <ovf censored> I have ever heard and I cant believe anybody buys it.

Both parties are now doing a mega give away to win votes.  Neither party will deliver on what they are saying.  However, at least Labours policies are geared towards the everyday person.

You can take your lead from historical events or you can look at the here and now.  Nobody, and I mean nobody complained about the governments running of the country under New Labour until the world economic crash.  

Under the Tory administration before them, well, there are many people in this area who would gauge your eyes out for thinking anything good of Thatcher.

Its age old, if you have a few quid and are pretty comfortable then you are probably a Tory voter.  If lifes a little bit tougher, you are probably vote Labour.  If you are objective your vote will change depending on if and when your circumstances change.

I will not vote for Boris Johnson.  He is a liar, bigot and generally a loathsome creature.  His mate Rees Mogg is highly offensive and Gove is of the same mold.  People like Javid are just blowing with the political wind.  The trouble is I dont think Corbyn is up to it, but where I live if I want any chance of removing Tory my only option is to vote Labour and even that's a long shot...

However, I cant see a majority for either.  With the Tories being bang out of mates, I think Labour will form a government with either Lib Dems or SNP or even both.  That will then sort Brexit out and then I think we will be back at the polls before next summer when hopefully we can elect a government on the basis of what is really important, things like the NHS and not this ridiculous pipe dream that nobody can actually deliver.

From your idealistic comments, you are obviously quite young!  And I don't say that disparingly--I admire your idealism.  However, if we are to learn for the future, we always need to learn the lessons of history.  If your scenario of a left-wing (almost Marxist) Corbyn government comes to pass (whichever other factions prop it up) I predict that you will be writing a very similar commentary to mine in a few years time when you are a bit longer in the tooth.

As a matter of interest, I was brought up on a pretty rough council estate and so had no silver spoon in my mouth. I too, like you, was an idealist when I was much younger and even voted Labour a couple of times! But life teaches you many lessons as you age and the one consistent truism throughout my almost 72 years on this earth is that Labour, whatever other good it might do, will always leave the country in a financial mess--please check those historical facts again.  If I were selfish, I should be minded to vote Labour, for the simple reason that as an old-age pensioner, a left-wing Labour administration will undoubtedly look after me and splash out billions of pounds in age-related welfare spending so that I, and many others of my era will be well looked-after, probably much better than under a Tory led government.  Unfortunately it will be you, my children and grandchildren who will still be picking up the bills of this Labour largesse for years to come--so good luck and thank you for looking after me in my dotage--much appreciated I can assure you!

[mr.hobblesworth]

Some good policies regarding equality for women (so disgraceful that they're still needed in 2019) announced by Labour today. On the same day a tory candidate has to stand down due to saying women needed to "keep their knickers on" to avoid being raped.

[mr.hobblesworth]

50 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

where I live if I want any chance of removing Tory my only option is to vote Labour

Not according to the LibDem's latest graph.

[mr.hobblesworth]

[Bycarsbill]

48 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Bill, how did Labour cause a global financial crisis? Also, why was Gordon Brown widely credited by world leaders for averting a far worse financial crisis?

 

Labour didn't cause the global financial crisis--and I've never said that.   But the two things, although separate issues are inter-connected.  I grant you that Gordon Brown, in terms of the world situation did rise to the plate and helped in the wider global sense. However and unfortunately because of all Labour's unbridled spending and largesse, particularly in terms of welfare and the public sector (salaries, pensions etc), Gt. Britain as a country was in a much worse position and financial state to withstand the global economic Tsunami.  Whichever economic studies you look at, Britain at the end of the Labour years in 2010 was bust and it took some sensible management to get the economy back onto an even keel. As I've said before, my fear is that the Conservatives are now going to throw off the sensible mantle and try and match Labour's spend-thrift promises!

[Bycarsbill]

15 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Some good policies regarding equality for women (so disgraceful that they're still needed in 2019) announced by Labour today. On the same day a tory candidate has to stand down due to saying women needed to "keep their knickers on" to avoid being raped.

I just love your selective quotes! I notice you've not mentioned Ian Austin or John Woodcock on their insightful quotes about Corbyn's lack of fitness to be PM!!

[mr.hobblesworth]

Of course I quote selectively, I'm taking a side and making points. If you just want to see a list of recent events, go and read the Independent. 

[Bycarsbill]

1 hour ago, Nofinikea said:

Bill, I appreciate you taking the time to write an articulate post on the issue though, which actually addresses your concerns about Labour historically, even if I dont agree with some of it.  I treat people as I find them and alot on here only deserve contempt.  However, that's not the case with how you have responded, so thanks.

Thank you for that acknowledement--much appreciated. We're never going to agree on everything, but at least we should debate in a civilised manner. I only ever try to argue in a factual and rational way.  As you say, it's a pity that not everyone on here is of the same mind-set!  Up the Vale!