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Jacko51

Do we live in a kakistocracy?

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2 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Again we descend into argument and counter argument backed up by stats interpreted to prove or disprove and presented as fact.

In terms of actual crosses in a box it was the largest mandate.  In terms of percentage of electorate it wasn't, that is the actual fact of this stat.  No amount of word play or huffing and puffing will change it and in the end, when people get on the merry go round of repeating there argument it only serves to wind yourselves up.

Just like the country and parliament,  this forum is split with people entrenched in there own viewpoint.  As with everything in life, both arguments have merit and both are also flawed.

The middle ground is where the majority of people from either side will feel most comfortable, neither to extreme one way or the other and as such, despite the "mandate" (whatever that really means as I dont remember there being several Brexit options on the ballot and whilst leave won, there is absolutely zero indication that all those people wanted a hard line brexit nor is there proof that they didnt but history tells us centre ground is generally the right approach to most things) a deal must be struck with our neighbours at the EU.  This allows us to withdraw and thus carry out the will of the people whilst not completely negating the other half (near is as damn it) of the nations wishes also.  Now what exactly is wrong with a compromise which keeps the majority of people from both camps happy?

Now of course if you are a hard line brexiteer, you wont be happy with a compromise because you want what YOU want.  If you are a deep seated remainer the same is true of you also.  I  am afraid the extremes of an argument never have and never will win, and nor can it.

My advice, chill out.  You all know each others stance, you are not going to change each others minds so learn to accept that and stop winding yourselves up.

It was a simple choice between Remain or Leave on the ballot paper.It doesn't come any clearer than that?

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40 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Quantities of oranges and apples can be compared as totals, but not as suitable for marmalade. MPs can claim a mandate from an election, but not from a advisory referendum, The AV referendum was mandatory,  but we have had 3 years of dithering and perhaps 10 years of trade arguments to come, which could have been avoided with a proper vote with a threshold of 50% of the electorate or 60% of the vote. 

In those circumstances we wouldn't be any better or worse off than now because neither side would have won..... just countless referendum to get no answer.

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50 minutes ago, For Us All said:

It was a simple choice between Remain or Leave on the ballot paper.It doesn't come any clearer than that?

The same people saying there is no mandate for no deal are the same people saying that we should have a second referendum. 

There is literally one scenario that has been explicitly ruled out by the people and that is remaining. 

3 years on and they cant accept that. And therefore any attempt by them to make it look like they are conceding ground is absolutely dishonest in my opinion. 

We have comprised. We tried to get a deal but for circumstances outside of our control it is not possible. There really is only one option left now and that is a clean brexit. 

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57 minutes ago, geosname said:

In those circumstances we wouldn't be any better or worse off than now because neither side would have won..... just countless referendum to get no answer.

We would be better off without having to spend billions preparing for Brexit, it is likely that the speculators would be worse off. 

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Can I just point out, this thread is about whether or not our politicians are kakistocrats, not about Brexit.  Unless you see the two are interchangeable.

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7 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Paul, the link you have posted literally says: no electoral option has ever received more votes than the 17.4m leave votes in 2016. 

It is there in black and white on your own link. 

What on earth is going on, on this website? 

Regal, the article also says, "In percentage terms, it’s not the biggest mandate in history. Of those who voted, 52% of people voted to leave the EU in 2016, compared to 67% of people who voted to stay in the European Community in 1975, the 68% who voted against changing the electoral system in 2011, or the 55% who voted for the Conservative party at the 1931 general election", hope we've put that one to bed finally.

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2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Can I just point out, this thread is about whether or not our politicians are kakistocrats, not about Brexit.  Unless you see the two are interchangeable.

Sorry Jacko, it is difficult to keep on track.. In my mind it is the electoral systems that are at fault, together  with the party system, and media, that has enabled a ruling class to monopolise parliament. To call it a democracy representative of the people is ridiculous, long gone are the days in the forties and fifties when there was a broad representation of the population, with widely different experiences of upbringing, education, and real work. The disdain for experts does not help either. Whether your plea for Brexit to return to its proper thread I only hope it is heeded. Otherwise a Kakistocratic 2 thread?

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1 hour ago, Paul6754 said:

Regal, the article also says, "In percentage terms, it’s not the biggest mandate in history. Of those who voted, 52% of people voted to leave the EU in 2016, compared to 67% of people who voted to stay in the European Community in 1975, the 68% who voted against changing the electoral system in 2011, or the 55% who voted for the Conservative party at the 1931 general election", hope we've put that one to bed finally.

Fantastic. I didn't say in percentage terms though did I? So exactly who and what are you correcting? 

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6 hours ago, For Us All said:

It was a simple choice between Remain or Leave on the ballot paper.It doesn't come any clearer than that?

Er yes...  that was kind of my point but nevermind.  Your blinkered approach to these topics typifies the leave at all costs argument that is quite frankly immature rhetoric straight from the pages of the Daily Mail.  It's like you are counting down to armageddon and you are delighted by the hurt and pain it will cause many millions on both sides of the divide, those happy to respect the result of the vote but understand that we cant simply ignore the wishes of 48% of the UK and so are prepared to compromise.  You are the entrenched example I refer too, who wont be happy with any kind of common ground, no matter how sensible it may be.

I hope the utopia you crave is everything you hope it will be.

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I'm still hoping that there are enough sensible parliamentarians who will stop this unbelievable nonsense. It's so stupidly daft that it's hard to understand that a British government would adopt it as policy.

 

 

Have I got this right?

We are proposing to do something that will severely harm our country, for which we have no sensible plan [apart from trying to minimise the casualties from our forthcoming car crash], at the same time as risking peace in N. Ireland as well as playing into the hands of the SNP, at a cost of hundreds of billions of pounds [at a time of austerity], trashing our relationship with the EU, decreasing our global influence, treating EU citizens like lepers, and then blaming it all on the EU.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, For Us All said:

90% of the posts have mentioned Brexit?

I know, but there is Brexit thread, this thread was started to discuss kakistocracy. Difficult to judge between methods of government and actual Brexit actions.

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If you expand the question beyond present circumstances it's quite interesting.

We vote for people we don't know and who are not trained to do the job because they joined a group who offer us more of the things they tell us we want than other groups can.

The group's who failed to convince the people they were the best option then spend 4 years or so trying to stop the winning group delivering their offerings...... simultaneously trying to convince the people that what they offer is really what they want in preparation for the next attempt at gaining power.

All groups seem to have their own version of what society should look like yet the society they know bears little resemblance to what society actually is...... each group tend to lean towards what they consider their core support and use human frailties and faults to collect support and garner approval.

So in answer to jeans question...... yes I think we probably do.

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On ‎19‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 20:31, Jacko51 said:

Look it up!!

Ah! Jean, when studying Philosophy back in the day we would have fun applying our own definitions to such words and sayings. But with Kakistocracy we would have had a ball defining 'worst'. Then again, my Class of 86 were a fun mob - sometimes to the despair of our Lecturer 😎

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