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Mr Trump: he's such a nice man!


Jacko51
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37 minutes ago, Tone said:
“Arguments drag out because one is too stubborn to forgive and the other is too proud to apologize.”
“Conflict cannot survive without your participation.”
– Wayne Dyer

I love it when we do quotes, there’s always good quotes.

“When people wrong you, go after those people, because it is a good feeling and because other people will see you doing it. I always get even.”

"Why do I have to repent, why do I have to ask for forgiveness if [I'm] not making mistakes?"


"I fully think apologizing is a great thing. But you have to be WRONG ... I will absolutely apologize sometime in the hopefully distant future if I'm ever wrong."

"When I go to church and when I drink my little wine and have my little cracker, I guess that is a form of forgiveness.”

- Donald Trump

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On 12/04/2021 at 08:19, Regal Beagle said:

I absolutely do not believe that they're suppressing minorities with the call for Photo ID, it wasn't meant to be slippery language. I fully believe that this is a lie.

 

There's an easy solution for the democrats to show that they're committed to free and fair elections and 'protecting' minorities. They should just provide photographic ID for free to anyone who wants one. 

 

The colour of your skin has absolutely no impact on whether you can obtain photographic ID. 

 

Notice how no one has ever said that showing ID for alcohol/driving/cigs/renting/employment/flying is racist because it oppresses black people? That's because it doesn't. I've not seen anyone engage with the Tory backbenchers who used black people as a pawn in their opposition to covid passports (when they said that black people are less likely to get the vaccine and so if we make passports a requirement for pubs or leisure activities then it would be racist). It's just people using black people for political leverage, time and time again.

 

There is clearly another reason for the democrats opposing this, and I suspect it has a lot to do with their current (lack of) border policy.

Regal, The Democrat Party ideally want all elections to be carried out totally by mail with ballots automatically mailed out to all on states/counties voter rolls with no voter id required.  The opportunity for massive fraud with this sysytem is real hence why very few countries use it.

The fairest and most accurate voter system is to turn up at a designated polling station, show a government issued id preferably with a photo, be listed on the voter roll,  and fill in an official ballot and that ballot then counted be by hand. Everyone in the USA has or  has the opportunity to obtain (for free) some form of government id, it's a must have to go about your daily business. It's required to buy alcohol (even by someone as old as me), to get on an plane, drive a car etc (A drivers license has your photo on it), no one has an excuse not to have such id.

The Democrat Party are for open borders and mass migration as traditionally once citizenship is obtained  people have tended to vote Democrat, the left see such policies as a way to gain/hold onto power,, particularly if no government id is required to vote as then non-citizens, fresh air can vote. 4/5 Americans support voter id laws.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-support-voter-laws-early-voting.aspx

It looks like the same issue is bubbling up in the UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50044539

 

 

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It’s not easy to get a free ID if you are poor or a minority. Republicans know that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html

Some quotes:

But many election experts say that the process for obtaining a photo ID can be far more difficult than it looks for hundreds of thousands of people across the country who do not have the required photo identification cards. Those most likely to be affected are elderly citizens, African Americans, Hispanics and low-income residents.

Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law.

Last week, during the federal trial on Wisconsin’s voter-ID law, a former Republican staffer testified that GOP senators were “giddy” about the idea that the state’s 2011 voter-ID law might keep Democrats, particularly minorities in Milwaukee, from voting and help them win at the polls. “They were politically frothing at the mouth,” said the aide, Todd Allbaugh.

A recent voter-ID study by political scientists at the University of California at San Diego analyzed turnout in elections between 2008 and 2012 and found “substantial drops in turnout for minorities under strict voter ID laws.”

“These results suggest that by instituting strict photo ID laws, states could minimize the influence of voters on the left and could dramatically alter the political leaning of the electorate,” the study concluded.Many of the residents struggling to obtain a valid photo ID are elderly and poor and were born in homes rather than hospitals. As a result, birth certificates were often lost or names were misspelled in official city records.

 

The article also gives a few examples of how hard and expensive it is to get ID for lots of people.

It goes to show when people like Paul say it’s free and easy they have literally no idea how hard it is for some people.

Demanding ID suppresses the vote of people that find it hard to get ID.

Those people are less likely to vote rebublican.

Republicans know that. Boris knows that translates to conservative votes in the uk.

Edited by Iron Curtain

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What is this fixation with photo id?  I'm not aware anyone in the UK has ever had to produce one at a general election - does that mean all our elections have been fraudulent?  Or is it just Americans who cheat at elections and not us Brits?

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9 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

What is this fixation with photo id?  I'm not aware anyone in the UK has ever had to produce one at a general election - does that mean all our elections have been fraudulent?  Or is it just Americans who cheat at elections and not us Brits?

Great question... what is the problem that trying to be solved. Or put better what are the republicans feeding to people like Paul which they know he will lap up like suckling sour milk from the teat of the machine.

This from the American Civil Liberties Union:

  • In-person fraud is vanishingly rare. A recent study found that, since 2000, there were only 31 credible allegations of voter impersonation – the only type of fraud that photo IDs could prevent – during a period of time in which over 1 billion ballots were cast.9

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Now the Uk

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/voter-id-key-facts-and-figures/

Demanding ID suppresses the vote of people without ID

The Electoral Commission, an independent body set up by the UK Parliament, analyses cases of electoral fraud. The chart below shows the number of cases of electoral fraud reported to the police each year since 2010. In the majority of these cases, no further action was taken because there was insufficient evidence.

Most cases related to campaign offences (49% of all reported cases in 2017 and 48% in 2018), for example where a party does not include details about the publisher on election material. This was followed by voting offences (31% of all cases in 2017 and 21% in 2018). 

In 2017, one person was convicted for the crime of personation at the polling station. Eight police cautions were given in relation to other offences. In 2018, there were noconvictions or cautions for personation.One person was convicted and two accepted a caution for electoral offences other than personation.

 

B3952739-CAFE-41D4-8A81-CB5916A75F35.jpeg

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14 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

What is this fixation with photo id?  I'm not aware anyone in the UK has ever had to produce one at a general election - does that mean all our elections have been fraudulent?  Or is it just Americans who cheat at elections and not us Brits?

Northern Ireland has a requirement to show photographic ID in elections.

 

It's also a requirement in a couple of commonwealth countries (including canada where you can be jailed for mis-gendering people). As well as some EU states. Are we to believe that those countries introduced voter ID to supress minority votes?

 

A quick search on Northern Ireland shows that the ethnic make up of the country is 98.2% white. How does that tie in with this conspiracy theory?

 

 

 

Quote

 

Voter ID in other countries

Voter ID requirements exist in other countries, including Canada, Germany, India, Sweden and some US states. In some countries where you need a photographic ID to vote, such as the Netherlands, carrying one is always compulsory.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Northern Ireland has a requirement to show photographic ID in elections.

 

It's also a requirement in a couple of commonwealth countries (including canada where you can be jailed for mis-gendering people). As well as some EU states. Are we to believe that those countries introduced voter ID to supress minority votes?

 

A quick search on Northern Ireland shows that the ethnic make up of the country is 98.2% white. How does that tie in with this conspiracy theory?

 

 

 

 

There is also a whole list of countries that dont have voter ID.

Different countries have different issues and challenges and therefore do things for different reasons.

The United states went years and years and years without the need for Voter ID.... why the need for change now?

The following things are true:

Demanding voters have ID suppresses the vote of people that dont have ID.

A higher proportion of Poor and ethic minority people dont have ID

It can be difficult and costly for them to get one (if you consider the cost of all the things you need to get right before the government will hand you a free one)

Poor and ethnic minority people are less likely to vote republican.

Republicans know this.

 

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6 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

There is also a whole list of countries that dont have voter ID.

Different countries have different issues and challenges and therefore do things for different reasons.

The United states went years and years and years without the need for Voter ID.... why the need for change now?

The following things are true:

Demanding voters have ID suppresses the vote of people that dont have ID.

A higher proportion of Poor and ethic minority people dont have ID

It can be difficult and costly for them to get one (if you consider the cost of all the things you need to get right before the government will hand you a free one)

Poor and ethnic minority people are less likely to vote republican.

Republicans know this.

 

 

Possibly a reaction to the changes in postal voting rules for the 2019 election. Why was there a need for that change?

 

It's simply not a valid argument to say that wanting to prevent voter fraud is racist because "it can be difficult for black and other ethnic minority people to get ID".

 

It's the classic democrat position. They don't care about helping these people get ID. They just want to weaponise them for votes. Every. Single. Election. 

 

You have to make gigantic logical leaps to get from preventing voter fraud to supressing black votes. You haven't even began to show evidence for any of it, but for wishy washy correlational stats.

 

To be quite honest, I do find the treatment of black people by the democrats to be heinous. It's racism with a clever marketing department.

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India, a country with 911m eligible voters can manage to have an ID system for elections.

 

Some of the poorest people in the world live in India and they still had a 67% turnout in their last general election. Higher than the US 2020 election incidentally.

 

Poverty isn't an excuse. Race isn't an excuse. There's as much evidence of "supressing black votes" as there is of saying that the democrats obviously want to encourage voter fraud because they benefit from it.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

You have to make gigantic logical leaps to get from preventing voter fraud to supressing black votes. You haven't even began to show evidence for any of it, but for wishy washy correlational stats.

You mean like the logical leap needed to believe trump about fraud fraud that stole the election that is the argument for such voter suppression.

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3 minutes ago, Andyregs said:

You mean like the logical leap needed to believe trump about fraud fraud that stole the election that is the argument for such voter suppression.

 

not quite, as I don't think you can label all allegations of voter fraud under the same Trump conspiracies. It sounds reasonable to me that postal voting is more open to fraud. So if they're going to allow more postal votes moving forward then it's reasonable to have more checks in place. 

 

We're talking about showing ID cards here by the way, as I've said already, it's something that literally billions of citizens have to do world wide to vote in their elections, including some UK citizens. It's not some heinous racist segregation policy that democrats are trying to make it out to be. 

 

This conspiracy is working on two lies. The first is the dishonest assumption that voter fraud is not possible or is so miniscule that it's not worth guarding against. The second is that because of the first lie, the only other explanation for republicans pushing this is racism and or some form of gerrymandering style election rigging. 

 

Will Voter IDs help prevent voter fraud? Probably. Does it prevent poor people or minorities from voting? No. It's weird that you lot are so offended by an attempt to reduce voter fraud.

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7 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

not quite, as I don't think you can label all allegations of voter fraud under the same Trump conspiracies. It sounds reasonable to me that postal voting is more open to fraud. So if they're going to allow more postal votes moving forward then it's reasonable to have more checks in place. 

 

We're talking about showing ID cards here by the way, as I've said already, it's something that literally billions of citizens have to do world wide to vote in their elections, including some UK citizens. It's not some heinous racist segregation policy that democrats are trying to make it out to be. 

 

This conspiracy is working on two lies. The first is the dishonest assumption that voter fraud is not possible or is so miniscule that it's not worth guarding against. The second is that because of the first lie, the only other explanation for republicans pushing this is racism and or some form of gerrymandering style election rigging. 

 

Will Voter IDs help prevent voter fraud? Probably. Does it prevent poor people or minorities from voting? No. It's weird that you lot are so offended by an attempt to reduce voter fraud.

If it’s reasonable then there will be lots and lots of evidence that mail in ballots were fraudulent beyond a handful of the usual instances. 
No one is saying fraud isn’t possible, you’re making that up to suit your argument. They are sayings it’s extremely rare. As for the second point, I’ve given quotes from actual republicans that admit suppressing the vote works in their favour. 

Edited by Andyregs

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10 minutes ago, Andyregs said:

If it’s reasonable then there will be lots and lots of evidence that mail in ballots were fraudulent beyond a handful of the usual instances. 
No one is saying fraud isn’t possible, you’re making that up to suit your argument. They are sayings it’s extremely rare. As for the second point, I’ve given quotes from actual republicans that admit suppressing the vote works in their favour. 

Hmm this is all very fishy.

 

It's really easy, just get ID. If affordability or access is a problem then why are the democrats not sorting that out?

 

I know why, because they profit from black people being oppressed and they profit from poor people staying poor. It's why they constantly need more oppression and they constantly need more poor people. 

 

10s of millions of people suspect that the last election was fraudulent. How do you propose the USA regains their trust?

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

Possibly a reaction to the changes in postal voting rules for the 2019 election. Why was there a need for that change?

 

It's simply not a valid argument to say that wanting to prevent voter fraud is racist because "it can be difficult for black and other ethnic minority people to get ID".

 

It's the classic democrat position. They don't care about helping these people get ID. They just want to weaponise them for votes. Every. Single. Election. 

 

You have to make gigantic logical leaps to get from preventing voter fraud to supressing black votes. You haven't even began to show evidence for any of it, but for wishy washy correlational stats.

 

To be quite honest, I do find the treatment of black people by the democrats to be heinous. It's racism with a clever marketing department.

Change to postal laws - coronavirus at a guess.

Why do you keep saying that I'm claiming its Racist? I haven't said that... the action is not to target lack people, its to target voters who dont have ID. Who just so happen to be poor and of ethnic minority. It also supresses the vote of very old people... with nothing to do with race. 

By Weaponise peoples votes... do you mean... give as many people as possible their legal vote? Come on RB that is really weak from you. 

I have made no giant leaps at all. I have stated nothing but truths.

Demanding people have a beard to vote would supress the vote of people who cant grow a beard.

Demanding you have an ID to vote supresses the vote of people that don't have an ID and have trouble getting one... they are allowed a vote, they have that right.

Which of thee statements do you disagree with?

Demanding voters have ID suppresses the vote of people that dont have ID.

A higher proportion of Poor and ethic minority people dont have ID

It can be difficult and costly for them to get one (if you consider the cost of all the things you need to get right before the government will hand you a free one)

Poor and ethnic minority people are less likely to vote republican.

Republicans know this.

I will also wait patiently for the evidence that there is mass voter fraud where people are walking up and pretending to be someone else, voting twice or voting in an incorrect state.

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9 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Hmm this is all very fishy.

 

It's really easy, just get ID. If affordability or access is a problem then why are the democrats not sorting that out?

 

Again... because the republicans would just stop it when they next won an election.. its not a sustainable solution.

 

36 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

This conspiracy is working on two lies. The first is the dishonest assumption that voter fraud is not possible or is so miniscule that it's not worth guarding against. The second is that because of the first lie, the only other explanation for republicans pushing this is racism and or some form of gerrymandering style election rigging. 

 

Will Voter IDs help prevent voter fraud? Probably. Does it prevent poor people or minorities from voting? No. It's weird that you lot are so offended by an attempt to reduce voter fraud.

The first conspiracy is easy to dismiss... show us there is loads of Voter fraud that would be solved by this problem.

Yes it does prevent poor minorities from voting. Currently they can vote without and ID... after legislation they cant. I cant see how you can reject that notion. Its logically and factually true.

I'm not offended by the attempt to reduce voter fraud, what a pathetic Weasley way to try and make out something that's not true... I will give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that was just an ill thought out statement.

I believe its more important to protect the democtratic process and give everyone who has the right to vote a vote... The ID requirement takes that away. The reason being given for taking it away is Voter Fraud.. which isnt proven as a problem. Again:

since 2000, there were only 31 credible allegations of voter impersonation 

That doesnt sound like an issue that needs to remove the ability of hundreds of thousands of people to vote.

I believe that the Voter fraud issue is being weaponised by the republicans to try and supress votes in people that dont vote for them. Its a convenient truth.

 

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3 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

Again... because the republicans would just stop it when they next won an election.. its not a sustainable solution.

 

The first conspiracy is easy to dismiss... show us there is loads of Voter fraud that would be solved by this problem.

Yes it does prevent poor minorities from voting. Currently they can vote without and ID... after legislation they cant. I cant see how you can reject that notion. Its logically and factually true.

I'm not offended by the attempt to reduce voter fraud, what a pathetic Weasley way to try and make out something that's not true... I will give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that was just an ill thought out statement.

I believe its more important to protect the democtratic process and give everyone who has the right to vote a vote... The ID requirement takes that away. The reason being given for taking it away is Voter Fraud.. which isnt proven as a problem. Again:

since 2000, there were only 31 credible allegations of voter impersonation 

That doesnt sound like an issue that needs to remove the ability of hundreds of thousands of people to vote.

I believe that the Voter fraud issue is being weaponised by the republicans to try and supress votes in people that dont vote for them. Its a convenient truth.

 

 

So just get ID. Their right to vote has not changed one bit. There is nothing stopping black people from getting ID compared to any other racial group. It's nothing to do with skin colour. 

 

I'd argue that it's not sustainable to have 10s of millions of an electorate distrusting the electoral process. 

 

Again, I think this is pure democrat projection. They want to fix elections for themselves and so they see any move by the republicans through that lens too. 

 

If India can have a higher turnout with more people and a significantly poorer population, there's no locial argument to say that black people cannot sort some ID out for themselves.

 

It's racist to think that they can't, in my view.

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