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Match thread: Port Vale v Bury

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6 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

So you don’t put any value on the management team, tactics employed, training, team spirit, team work ethic and squad professionalism?

I agree we are not one of the best sides in the league, not so I think we will be for a few years while we rebuild from the screwing Smurthwaite did to us.

but to simply compare 11 vs 11 seems to miss out a significant part of the world of football, does it not?

Of course management is a huge factor but that alone won’t turn what is essentially the same 11 from one of the worse sides in the league into one of the best. 

We were better with askey in charge last year but there were still some horror shows. 4 wins in 16 dosent suggest to me that that 11 has what it takes to be compared to one of the leagues best. 

I’m hoping / expecting we can be around the middle / top 10 which is a steady improvement but the original post saying our best 11 is as good as the best in league is way off the mark. 

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Sorry, some great excuses on here but we were beaten fair and square by a team who are bust, had no players 2 weeks ago and could have won by more.

If their triallists are that could with naff all team building etc then we should have them rather than ex Macc players.

Hope I’m wrong but it’s going to be tough 

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41 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

 

We were better with askey in charge last year 

Don't get me wrong, this is not an anti-Askey post. And we were heading in the wrong direction at the time, and he kept us up. A bit like Aspin did previous season. A change was needed.

But the facts are last season we got less average points per game and scored less average goals per game under Askey than under Aspin. Sure, Aspo had to go. Something was deeply wrong at that time.

Our worst performance (vs Macc) was under Askey.

Aspin was not the useless devil incarnate and neither was Askey saviour. 

I wish him all the best of course. But it is a very simplistic view to say he pulled out a miracle and changed us from a dour team grinding out results to a free flowing footballing machine.

I'm not convinced by him myself. Neither am I convinced by the recruitment, or by the current balance of the squad.

We are weak at full back (apart from Gibbo when in the good books), lack decent cover at CB, light weight in CM, and really super light weight if Manny gets crocked. Three central up front options, but an injury or two, when one is injury prone and the Pope is getting on a bit?

This is not a popular opinion I know. Not meaning to be negative. And I really hope I am wrong. But you can only say it how you see it. And this is not based on pre-season friendlies. 

I think we will struggle again.

 

Edited by toyahw
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58 minutes ago, toyahw said:

We are weak at full back (apart from Gibbo when in the good books), lack decent cover at CB, light weight in CM, and really super light weight if Manny gets crocked. Three central up front options, but an injury or two, when one is injury prone and the Pope is getting on a bit?

I still think we should have gone out and bought an out and out left back. I’m not convinced by this converting of a centre half to full back. Crookes is a tidy player, but I think playing at full back has exposed him at times. Today was no different. Supposedly Evans can cover both right and left back, but he needs to get better, the only way has to be up for him after today’s performance, he can’t get any worse than that surely.

 

Manny is massive for us. I think Worrall would drop in to midfield if Manny gets injured, hence him playing there in the previous friendlies. But that in turn could limit us going forwards if he drops deeper. The midfield 3 were way off it in today’s first half. 

 

Hopefully Cullen can stay fit as I think he could be very useful for us. But he doesn’t fit into Askeys 4-3-3 formation. Same goes for Pope, we need him fit, but we are not yet at a stage where we’ve found a replacement for him. He is so good at what he does. 

 

I think we’ve got some good players in our squad, Brown, Gibbons, Legge, Smith, Manny, Worrall, Pope, Amoo, Cullen. However we need them to stay fit though to give us a chance this season because scratch beneath the surface and we don’t really have the same quality to replace those players. 

Edited by PV1973
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7 hours ago, Playa Amodores said:

I agree with most things said in here and can’t understand why Rawlinson was given game time. Having not been on the retained list at the end of the season, were seven days from the start of next season and he’s brought on as a sub.

Does Askey know his best team. The best team should have started today. Crooks and Evans were that poor there are no words to describe them without using profanities. Richie Bennett is another player who I can’t say did anything memorable 

I'm pretty sure he knows his best 11 players, the 11 started the second half with. I think Evans probably needed 45 minutes of actual game time and Bennett has played wide left all preseason so needed a run out in the centre. Hard to read too much into this game as you would hope the players were well and truly flogged last week in Scotland.

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Got to give it 'til the end of September before making a judgement but I'm underwhelmed by the recruitment this summer. We have a tough start just hope we don't get some maulings 'cause it could set the tone for the season.

Vale appear to have strengthened up top but center of midfield, center of defense and left back look a tad weak and lacking in decent cover. I hope I'm wrong.

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I know whitfield is not wanted by the management, but he is better than some of that crap.

Askey said he would give him a chance, he did not mean it. 

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6 hours ago, toyahw said:

Don't get me wrong, this is not an anti-Askey post. And we were heading in the wrong direction at the time, and he kept us up. A bit like Aspin did previous season. A change was needed.

But the facts are last season we got less average points per game and scored less average goals per game under Askey than under Aspin. Sure, Aspo had to go. Something was deeply wrong at that time.

Our worst performance (vs Macc) was under Askey.

Aspin was not the useless devil incarnate and neither was Askey saviour. 

I wish him all the best of course. But it is a very simplistic view to say he pulled out a miracle and changed us from a dour team grinding out results to a free flowing footballing machine.

I'm not convinced by him myself. Neither am I convinced by the recruitment, or by the current balance of the squad.

We are weak at full back (apart from Gibbo when in the good books), lack decent cover at CB, light weight in CM, and really super light weight if Manny gets crocked. Three central up front options, but an injury or two, when one is injury prone and the Pope is getting on a bit?

This is not a popular opinion I know. Not meaning to be negative. And I really hope I am wrong. But you can only say it how you see it. And this is not based on pre-season friendlies. 

I think we will struggle again.

 

A good post with some valid points..personally speaking I do think we have a better looking main squad and I don't think we will struggle but neither do I think we will trouble the top 10.

As much as we would love to go straight into a promotion team,its all about steady progress I guess,as time goes by the manager will get better budgets to work with,at least we know any money will go back into the club,investments,cup runs,any sales etc.

I still would like to see a LB come in(cant see it though),the young lad has looked decent and maybe in 12mths time we will have our LB right there....

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7 hours ago, toyahw said:

Don't get me wrong, this is not an anti-Askey post. And we were heading in the wrong direction at the time, and he kept us up. A bit like Aspin did previous season. A change was needed.

But the facts are last season we got less average points per game and scored less average goals per game under Askey than under Aspin. Sure, Aspo had to go. Something was deeply wrong at that time.

Our worst performance (vs Macc) was under Askey.

Aspin was not the useless devil incarnate and neither was Askey saviour. 

I wish him all the best of course. But it is a very simplistic view to say he pulled out a miracle and changed us from a dour team grinding out results to a free flowing footballing machine.

I'm not convinced by him myself. Neither am I convinced by the recruitment, or by the current balance of the squad.

We are weak at full back (apart from Gibbo when in the good books), lack decent cover at CB, light weight in CM, and really super light weight if Manny gets crocked. Three central up front options, but an injury or two, when one is injury prone and the Pope is getting on a bit?

This is not a popular opinion I know. Not meaning to be negative. And I really hope I am wrong. But you can only say it how you see it. And this is not based on pre-season friendlies. 

I think we will struggle again.

 

I completely agree.

It looks to me like the same mistakes that happened with recruitment last season have been made again. Lack of quality and a lot of chancers especially if this lad hurst signs as well. As you say we’re weak at left back and I agree about the midfield and have been saying it for some time. We look very weak there, I’m not convinced by Joyce at all and Conlon for me seems way overrated on here. Manny is our class player along with brown but as we saw last season struggles with injury so I’m surprised we’ve not strengthened there.

For me it looks like we’ve done what we did under brown and aspin yet again and that’s quantity over quality. Only 2 players that have signed will probably start on Saturday and I don’t believe that’s enough given how poor we were last season. Too many back up players who may turn good but equally could end up the same as the many squad players that barely played over the last few seasons. 

I think askey wants another forward so hopefully that will solve that. Cullen and pope is a good strike force not convinced from what I saw bennet yesterday but harsh to judge so early. 

I think we will struggle as will and some on here seem to have accepted this as being ok. I do think askey is a decent manager in terms of his tactics and I was impressed by him at macc, not convinced by the recruitment as you say though. 

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8 hours ago, valiant_593 said:

Of course management is a huge factor but that alone won’t turn what is essentially the same 11 from one of the worse sides in the league into one of the best. 

We were better with askey in charge last year but there were still some horror shows. 4 wins in 16 dosent suggest to me that that 11 has what it takes to be compared to one of the leagues best. 

I’m hoping / expecting we can be around the middle / top 10 which is a steady improvement but the original post saying our best 11 is as good as the best in league is way off the mark. 

Our first 11 last season was a mid table side, the problem was whenever 2 players were missing we were a bottom of the table side. I think that's why 10 games in is a good point to judge a team because it shows not just the first 11 but has an element of strength in depth because a few injuries will have happened. Certainly defeat at Colchester wouldn't be the point to start panicking. 

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I think Toyahw makes valid points.

All areas of the team look a little suspect, with concerns about depth.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that the manager now has improved support and a much better background atmosphere.

Aspos tenure was against the dreadful backdrop that we all know so well.

Askey's time, whilst much improved, has still featured massive change and uncertainty.

The kits were last minute.

Probably a metaphor for this season's preparations on the field.

I think, generally, an excellent job has been done.

Under these circumstances.

Massive amounts of work have gone into simply getting the show on the road.

How it translates on to the pitch will soon be revealed.

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Furthering the kit metaphor, I suspect that our player supply chain is not in good shape, so Askey has had to go for what is available to him.

Hopefully, as the club's reputation recovers, this will improve.

Smurthwaite's legacy, sadly, still hangs over the club.

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12 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

I completely agree.

It looks to me like the same mistakes that happened with recruitment last season have been made again. Lack of quality and a lot of chancers especially if this lad hurst signs as well. As you say we’re weak at left back and I agree about the midfield and have been saying it for some time. We look very weak there, I’m not convinced by Joyce at all and Conlon for me seems way overrated on here. Manny is our class player along with brown but as we saw last season struggles with injury so I’m surprised we’ve not strengthened there.

For me it looks like we’ve done what we did under brown and aspin yet again and that’s quantity over quality. Only 2 players that have signed will probably start on Saturday and I don’t believe that’s enough given how poor we were last season. Too many back up players who may turn good but equally could end up the same as the many squad players that barely played over the last few seasons. 

I think askey wants another forward so hopefully that will solve that. Cullen and pope is a good strike force not convinced from what I saw bennet yesterday but harsh to judge so early. 

I think we will struggle as will and some on here seem to have accepted this as being ok. I do think askey is a decent manager in terms of his tactics and I was impressed by him at macc, not convinced by the recruitment as you say though. 

The quantity over quality argument only holds argument if we've got too many players and currently our squad size is smaller than most teams in this league. I suspect Cullen is on a much higher wage than all of the released players, and Amoo and Bennett will be on a similar or slightly higher wages to more expensive released players. There won't have been much left over after that, particularly with a marginally reduced budget. I think we're sitting at close to a minimum size of squad without the options of loan signings. I'm not excited by players like Lloyd. He's nowhere near as good as Pugh was at this best, but I do think he's an upgrade on Pugh at the end of his career. Haven't seen anything of Burgess but he's probably an upgrade on Tongue from last year. Browne has been a match winner at times for Yeovil, if inconsistent, not that different to Whitfield. Evans is probably a downgrade at rightback, but Gibbons is a decent first choice.

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Let's hope we can turn up 1 or 2 decent loan players that can actually improve the first team rather than the usual 5 or 6 who struggle to make the bench.

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33 minutes ago, Wrex said:

Let's hope we can turn up 1 or 2 decent loan players that can actually improve the first team rather than the usual 5 or 6 who struggle to make the bench.

Agreed. No loan player should be signed if he is not good enough to go straight into the first team. No ifs, no buts. A waste of our limited financial resources if he is just going to sit on the bench or not even make the matchday squad. We already have enough "squad players" to do that.

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5 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Got to give it 'til the end of September before making a judgement but I'm underwhelmed by the recruitment this summer. We have a tough start just hope we don't get some maulings 'cause it could set the tone for the season.

Vale appear to have strengthened up top but center of midfield, center of defense and left back look a tad weak and lacking in decent cover. I hope I'm wrong.

 I think the jury is out as to whether we have strengthened anywhere only the results in the first few games will prove if we have or we haven't !  

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37 minutes ago, Wrex said:

Let's hope we can turn up 1 or 2 decent loan players that can actually improve the first team rather than the usual 5 or 6 who struggle to make the bench.

The problem with the loan market is you get what you pay for. The best under 23 players you might end up paying 90% of salary plus accommodation which is way beyond our top paid player. At the real gamble, bottom end, you can end up basically just paying for accommodation. I'm not sure we'll be bringing many in on loan unless we have a couple of injuries in a particular position. I think part of the Notts Forest day was that it's commutable for loan signings so we can save a bit on accommodation. Premier League and Championship clubs will try to squeeze every penny they can from a club trying to take a player on loan.

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Friendlies mean nothing, last weekend we were excellent against a decent Premier League outfit until making big changes, days before beat a decent Fleetwood side.

Don’t judge anything off friendlies at all. I expected promotion in 2007/08 after wiping the floor with United and Sheffield Weds 3-0! We went down easily.

I don’t think we will go down. We’ve got the squad from last season in terms of strongest XI pretty much that stayed up comfortably in the end, added some goals (Miller’s 4 goals I think were the only striker goals bar Pope?) Cullen if fit should get double figures easily and Bennett for 6 or 7 when out of favour at Carlisle for part of the season. Added in the pace we lack in Amoo and Browne and not having 6 months of Uber negative set ups from Aspin and things not right in the dressing room and off the field and things look much better.

No excuse this side should finish well away from
Danger. Upper mid table is achievable.

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Norman used to sign the cheapest loan players he could get hold of without consulting the manager, that is why a lot of them didn't feature. Hopefully John will be recruiting players which he can afford and he thinks will add strength in depth to the squad. 

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21 minutes ago, Seamus O'Wye said:

Agreed. No loan player should be signed if he is not good enough to go straight into the first team. No ifs, no buts. A waste of our limited financial resources if he is just going to sit on the bench or not even make the matchday squad. We already have enough "squad players" to do that.

I'd agree with that. I don't think the loan players last year cost us much in terms of a wage contribution, but add on traveling costs and hotels they contributed little for every pound they did cost. I've reconciled myself to Lloyd because I looked at the dross we had on loan and we won't have to pay board and travel; so he possibly does represent decent value for money.

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