Racism in our political parties.

[mr.hobblesworth]

This has been in the news a lot lately, particularly with Labour's anti-Semitism issue. There have also been concerns raised over Islamophobia in the Conservative Party. I'm interested in what people think about all this and would really like to discuss it without stupid glib asides or political point scoring (I know I'm as guilty of that as anyone else). I'm sure it'll all descend in to horribleness but it'd be nice if we (including myself) just tried to keep it reasonable for as long as possible.

So, regarding Labour's issue... Obviously, first and foremost, hatred and bigotry directed against Jewish people is disgusting and anyone found guilty of this should be kicked out of the party, as should anyone downplaying or denying the Holocaust. However, I do struggle to understand why criticism of the state of Israel is classed as racism. I very openly state that my knowledge of the Israel/ Palestine stuff is very very limited and would be interested in why it is considered so. I also feel that the charge of anti-Semitism against Labour has become politicised by the enemies of Jeremy Corbyn. I'd be very interested to see what other users think of the following blogpost by the award winning journalist Jonathan Cook.

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2019-07-11/panorama-hatchet-job-labour-antisemitism-bbc/

 

 

[Fosse69]

As regards Jews, old as the hills. As a young lad walking through Hanley in the 40s with my mother, I overheard a conversation " We don't shop at Lewis`s they are owned by Jews"..  As a lad I asked the usual question "Why?". She explained that some people though the Jews had all and ruled the world giving Rockerfeller as the example. At the time Israel was not linked,, it was a new homeland for displaced Jews living in kibbutz likened to a socialist paradise. Of course hatred of Jews was longstanding in Christianity with the death of Christ and expelling the moneylenders from the temple, expulsions from England in the Middle ages etc  This  changed completely when the knowledge of the war time atrocities by the Nazi state became known,  Jews and Israel naturally being given every sympathy and recompense. However in later years various wars and land expansion has changed attitudes. I can understand antipathy against the way Israel is run, but why does that mean it is against Jews? The other aspect is the long held view that Jews control the world through the US money system. The other angle I have trouble with is if people are only criticizing Israel because they are Jewish, how do you prove it if they say not? Difficult subject, I have not seen examples on line, unlike the racial ones that come up.

[Fosse69]

8 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

As regards Jews, old as the hills. As a young lad walking through Hanley in the 40s with my mother, I overheard a conversation " We don't shop at Lewis`s they are owned by Jews"..  As a lad I asked the usual question "Why?". She explained that some people though the Jews had all and ruled the world giving Rockerfeller as the example. At the time Israel was not linked,, it was a new homeland for displaced Jews living in kibbutz likened to a socialist paradise. Of course hatred of Jews was longstanding in Christianity with the death of Christ and expelling the moneylenders from the temple, expulsions from England in the Middle ages etc  This  changed completely when the knowledge of the war time atrocities by the Nazi state became known,  Jews and Israel naturally being given every sympathy and recompense. However in later years various wars and land expansion has changed attitudes. I can understand antipathy against the way Israel is run, but why does that mean it is against Jews? The other aspect is the long held view that Jews control the world through the US money system. The other angle I have trouble with is if people are only criticizing Israel because they are Jewish, how do you prove it if they say not? Difficult subject, I have not seen examples on line, unlike the racial ones that come up.

As regards the blog, seems to be an undercover operation, of which they are masters.

[Regal Beagle]

6 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

This has been in the news a lot lately, particularly with Labour's anti-Semitism issue. There have also been concerns raised over Islamophobia in the Conservative Party. I'm interested in what people think about all this and would really like to discuss it without stupid glib asides or political point scoring (I know I'm as guilty of that as anyone else). I'm sure it'll all descend in to horribleness but it'd be nice if we (including myself) just tried to keep it reasonable for as long as possible.

So, regarding Labour's issue... Obviously, first and foremost, hatred and bigotry directed against Jewish people is disgusting and anyone found guilty of this should be kicked out of the party, as should anyone downplaying or denying the Holocaust. However, I do struggle to understand why criticism of the state of Israel is classed as racism. I very openly state that my knowledge of the Israel/ Palestine stuff is very very limited and would be interested in why it is considered so. I also feel that the charge of anti-Semitism against Labour has become politicised by the enemies of Jeremy Corbyn. I'd be very interested to see what other users think of the following blogpost by the award winning journalist Jonathan Cook.

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2019-07-11/panorama-hatchet-job-labour-antisemitism-bbc/

 

 

I think the article is garbage. He talks about a lack of substance and evidence in the panorama show and then does the same if not far worse in his own article. He criticises the show for leaving out key facts and then later fails to mention Corbyn's mates at Hamas when he mentions that the tory leadership had links to the anti-semetic Hungarian leader. He blames a jewish infight for antisemtism which seems crazy to me. I don't think he will win any awards for that article.

The accusation is that many anti-semites in the labour party target Isreal because it is the only Jewish state and they substitute the word "Jewish" with "Isreali" because it sounds better and disuises their true motives.

[mr.hobblesworth]

I don't feel that there is the same onus on the author of a blog post to provide evidence and substance as there is for the national broadcaster when making serious allegations about the leader of a political party.

I thought the revelations that the "brave whistleblowers" in the Panorama doc had histories of undermining Corbyn and other stuff that could taint their image of impartiality was very interesting. Like Cook, I have also wondered why so many Jews and Jewish groups how defend or are pro-Corbyn are never reported or asked for responses or comment. I also struggle to understand why when Labour have 0.06% of their members under investigation for anti-Semitism (that's like 3 people from a Vale home game with a decent 5,000+ attendance) it is labelled as a 'crisis' yet when another political party have nearly half their members stating that they would not accept a Muslim as the UK's PM it hardly gets a mention. 

More and more I'm beginning to understand how this isn't about anti-Semitism, it's about finding a stick with which to beat Corbyn and getting him to step down . Lords interviewed over the last couple of days have admitted as much. 'Lord' Winston was on tv yesterday saying 'I don't think this is about anti-semitism, I think it's much worse that that, it's about a party that is dysfunctional and has poor leadership etc etc'. That says it all, for me. 

1 hour ago, Regal Beagle said:

The accusation is that many anti-semites in the labour party target Isreal because it is the only Jewish state and they substitute the word "Jewish" with "Isreali" because it sounds better and disuises their true motives.

Who is making that accusation?

[mr.hobblesworth]

Interesting that The Guardian has refused to print this cartoon by its regular contributor, Steve Bell...

 

Bell's response here:
 

 

[geosname]

WOW........ big subject racism.... and very difficult to confine to fine lines of "within political parties".

I will start by saying that a phobia is an irrational fear which doesn't imply hate necessarily.... followed by all racism is irrational.

To look at the subject objectively you have to discard your own personal biased views of what or who is involved.... not a simple task.

I also believe that any group or collective that investigates itself is doomed to fail.... I offer the police as a prime example.

On the surface Labour's stance of blaming everything on disaffected workers is concerning, the "nothing to see here" approach does them no favours, add in the NDAs and I can see why the heat is getting turned up.... rightly or wrongly..... I don't know.

It opens up a much wider discussion of what is hate, hate speech, special groups, hurt feelings etc etc.

In my opinion everything is a weapon or a tool in today's must win at all cost politics.

[mr.hobblesworth]

I don't think Labour have blamed everything on disaffected workers, just aspects of the Panorama documentary. It's galling that the 'witnesses for the prosecution' all seem to have vested interests and their claims taken at face value when they (IMO) have ulterior motives. 

7 hours ago, geosname said:

It opens up a much wider discussion of what is hate, hate speech, special groups, hurt feelings etc etc.

Not for me, it doesn't. For me it perfectly illustrates how it's all being weaponised to attack Corbyn. I feel that Labour has done more than any political party to combat anti-semitism (although still has work to do) but I question whether we will ever be accepted as having done enough whilst those who hate Corbyn are still in charge of making that decision.

Really interesting (brief) piece by Richard Silverstein here...

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/labours-anti-semitism-crisis-is-<ovf censored>/

Quote

Currently, in the UK an alliance of the local Israel Lobby, the Tories and much of the British media have concocted an anti-Semitism scare, declaring the Labour Party is riddled with Jew hatred. In response, Labour has adopted a deeply flawed IHRA definition which posits that most criticism of Israel is ipso facto, anti-Semitic. This was a “cave” to the Party’s enemies in a false belief that giving them half a loaf would make them go away.  Any one of us could’ve told them that giving them that half loaf meant they were going to come back for the whole.  And they have.

The ultimate goal of this campaign against Labour is not to stamp out anti-Semitism in England or in the Labour Party. Rather, the goal is to tar the Party with the brush of Jew-hatred so that British voters will view the Party as extremist.  The purveyors of this canard care not so much about promoting tolerance in Britain, as they do about destroying Labour’s chance of becoming the ruling party in the coming election.

 

 

[geosname]

Ok a couple of questions......

If you think it's weaponised against jezza in parliament don't you consider the same by others outside parliament against other people or groups? 

Don't you think the answers and statements Labour have made in answer to questions asked are self defeating?

[Fosse69]

Further questions. There are 2 Jewish groups as far as I know in the LP, I assume I may be wrong, one anti and one pro Israel, is there also internal animosity as well as possible external activity going on?  What numbers of Jews in the LP? 

I know the number of complaints is very low and ideally should be lower, can it ever be eliminated but is it seen as making the LP racist outside the media and activists, does it not just go over peoples heads as compared to the outbursts of Trump, etc.

I also read recently about moves in the German parliament  to make criticism of Israel a anti-Semitic offence, who is driving that?

[Heatwave]

Most of the rhetoric on both sides of the argument has come since the 2017 general election, which Labour ought to have won easily given the Tories' record in government - they should have been pushing at an open door to become the government; in actuality they couldn't even muster a majority. Jezza and his mates are a massive turn off for voters and many at the top of the party - admittedly now in the Lords - see this where Momentum can't. That's why they are trying to force Jezza and his mates out using any tools available to them. 

Personally I don't have any problems with Labour's policies; it's their public persona that has the problem. Jeremy Corbyn will never win an election, full stop.

[jjvale_03]

This thread isn't about racism in our political parties. It's simply a vehicle for the OP to repeatedly claim this is all a smear campaign against his beloved Corbyn. 

As someone else already commented, claims of institutional racism (in this case regarding political parties) are simply the latest tool to be used by the increasingly desperate political parties to point score and divide. 

[mr.hobblesworth]

What am I supposed to do?

[geosname]

Try to leave your bias at home? Look at all the possibilities and question everything.... it's not easy.

[LancyTony]

On 18/07/2019 at 15:27, mr.hobblesworth said:

... I also feel that the charge of anti-Semitism against Labour has become politicised by the enemies of Jeremy Corbyn....

 

 

I rather think that the resignation from the Labour Party of long-term members such as the likes of Maureen Lipman, Tony Robinson, etc; and the attitude of the Jewish Labour Movement says more about the state of the Labour Party than any pretence that it is right-wing-inspired? Also, that it is only the second organization to be investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission is fairly damning?