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NHS The sinking flagship


geosname

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1 minute ago, Fosse69 said:

Are there any figures for the money recovered from your so called freeloaders i.e. people without health insurance ? There is no point in Doctors/Nurses filling in forms if the admin staff  do not have  the time to chase the civil servants or whoever deals with the foreign authorities to recover the money. We have not reached the US way of turning people away for emergency treatment.

Do they get turned away?

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I don't think anyone would argue about a desire to try and prevent criminals and illegal immigrants sneaking into this country and abusing the system. We all agree on that.

But it isn't the job of a doctor to decide who he/she treats and be asked to check documentation, payment etc. if someone needs immediate health care, like a cancer patient. It's the government's job to sort all that out and stop these people at the border. 

The BMA is saying that doctors should not turn away people who are ill and/or need urgent care, regardless of their origin. That's what doctors do. Save lives. I'm inclined to agree with them. What kind of society do we want, if let's say a doctor has two patients in front of him who both need very urgent care?  Are you are suggesting they turn one away and only treat the other?

We need to address the problem at source ie. government inaction at the borders, and not try and blame doctors for doing what they think is morally and ethically right.

Health tourism is very hard to quantify. The King's Fund reckon it's about £60-80 million a year. The total NHS bill is around £115 billion so as a % it's around 0.3%. But it's hard to get accurate figures because we don't keep accurate records (whose fault is that?). Some reckon it's up to £280 million a year. It's hard to get at the truth because health tourists include visitors who fall over and break an ankle, ex-pats seeing their old GP, folk who sneak in and try and get free treatment, etc. We do of course have a reciprocal deal with the EU so we can access healthcare when we're abroad and this is generally more costly to them than us (x5 more) because most of our folk abroad have retired. Since 2015 non residents are supposed to pay upfront fees for NHS treatment but again who is policing that?

We need to be careful not to fall for the right wing narrative in the press that immigration is terrible and blow everything out of all proportion. To give you one example.

In 2017,St George’s Hospital in London checked 1660 maternity unit patients and found only 18 ineligible, with a total chargeable amount of £45 000. Equally small proportions of ineligible maternity patients were found at Newham and Redbridge maternity units. How did the Daily Mail report that story? "Crackdown on women who fly to the UK to give birth on the NHS is working despite doctors' fury." Context is everything. Don't believe everything you read in the papers. Don't get me wrong. It's money we need to try and recoup but to exaggerate it is silly.

As I've said before, the reason why there are increasing problems in the NHS is not primarily due to a small number abusing the system but the fact that the government has decreased the amount of GDP we spend on the NHS, cut resources and training, plus an increasing number of us are getting older and treatment is getting more expensive. 63,000 EU workers work in the NHS and keep it running. Thank god they do, including 300-400 in our local hospital in Stoke. 

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1 hour ago, TheSage said:

I don't think anyone would argue about a desire to try and prevent criminals and illegal immigrants sneaking into this country and abusing the system. We all agree on that.

But it isn't the job of a doctor to decide who he/she treats and be asked to check documentation, payment etc. if someone needs immediate health care, like a cancer patient. It's the government's job to sort all that out and stop these people at the border. 

The BMA is saying that doctors should not turn away people who are ill and/or need urgent care, regardless of their origin. That's what doctors do. Save lives. I'm inclined to agree with them. What kind of society do we want, if let's say a doctor has two patients in front of him who both need very urgent care?  Are you are suggesting they turn one away and only treat the other?

We need to address the problem at source ie. government inaction at the borders, and not try and blame doctors for doing what they think is morally and ethically right.

Health tourism is very hard to quantify. The King's Fund reckon it's about £60-80 million a year. The total NHS bill is around £115 billion so as a % it's around 0.3%. But it's hard to get accurate figures because we don't keep accurate records (whose fault is that?). Some reckon it's up to £280 million a year. It's hard to get at the truth because health tourists include visitors who fall over and break an ankle, ex-pats seeing their old GP, folk who sneak in and try and get free treatment, etc. We do of course have a reciprocal deal with the EU so we can access healthcare when we're abroad and this is generally more costly to them than us (x5 more) because most of our folk abroad have retired. Since 2015 non residents are supposed to pay upfront fees for NHS treatment but again who is policing that?

We need to be careful not to fall for the right wing narrative in the press that immigration is terrible and blow everything out of all proportion. To give you one example.

In 2017,St George’s Hospital in London checked 1660 maternity unit patients and found only 18 ineligible, with a total chargeable amount of £45 000. Equally small proportions of ineligible maternity patients were found at Newham and Redbridge maternity units. How did the Daily Mail report that story? "Crackdown on women who fly to the UK to give birth on the NHS is working despite doctors' fury." Context is everything. Don't believe everything you read in the papers. Don't get me wrong. It's money we need to try and recoup but to exaggerate it is silly.

As I've said before, the reason why there are increasing problems in the NHS is not primarily due to a small number abusing the system but the fact that the government has decreased the amount of GDP we spend on the NHS, cut resources and training, plus an increasing number of us are getting older and treatment is getting more expensive. 63,000 EU workers work in the NHS and keep it running. Thank god they do, including 300-400 in our local hospital in Stoke. 

Just be careful when you used different fonts Sage.Mr.H might accuse you of copying and pasting.

Just a thought.🤣

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13 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Plenty of stories in the press, what the situation with Obamacare is I do not know, perhaps a US resident will enlighten us.

As far as I know no one is denied treatment in the USA because of an inability to pay or not having health insurance but I'm sure some of the America antagonists on OVF will find an article where some one was once. In some states, eg MA I believe the state will pay or provide insurance if money is not available.

Obama care is generally only used if someone doesn't have Health Insurance subsidized by an employer. The cost of Obamacare depends on your income, how old you are and which state you live in, it is usually much more expensive than employer subsidized healthcare and the price varies depending on the level of coverage.

There is also a social security program called Medicaid which helps with medical bills again depending on household income .

 

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Why have so many left since 2016? Can you explain why that has happened in greater numbers than ever before?

A more hostile environment towards them and their homelands in Europe? Would you want to come here if we cut ourselves off from Europe? 3-4 years ago I could get maybe 1.40 Euros for my pound. Today? What is it? 1.08? A falling pound won't help to recruit foreign workers either.

Haven't I read somewhere that to get in you might need a wage of 36K? Those who do come here will need to apply for settled status - accompanied by all the extra paperwork and onerous bureaucracy that comes with it. 

I don't know the figures for the NHS but 61,000 EU workers left the UK in the last half of 2018.

Some nurses here, in a FT article about why they're leaving. Their words not mine.

https://www.ft.com/content/8f2d6e22-e7f9-11e8-8a85-04b8afea6ea3

We're 100,000 NHS staff short already. Brexit won't help the situation one iota.

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Have the EU super nurses left the country or simply left the NHS? Until you can answer that, repeating the figures over and over is irrelevent.

You are guessing what the immigration policy will be. Well, assuming a worse case scenario in order to back up your opinion.

As I've said, we can just let nurses in if we want. It really will be that easy.

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Yes. They have left their jobs in the NHS and left the country. In addition, the number applying to work here in the NHS has also fallen, including consultants.

It isn't a question of us wanting to let them in but they increasingly don't want to come here - principally because of the hostility towards the EU shown by people like you and the increasing amount of hassle, expense and red tape they will face if they do choose to come here.

I notice you completely ignore my question at the start and haven't addressed most of my points above. 

I think we can move on. 

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9 hours ago, TheSage said:

Yes. They have left their jobs in the NHS and left the country. In addition, the number applying to work here in the NHS has also fallen, including consultants.

It isn't a question of us wanting to let them in but they increasingly don't want to come here - principally because of the hostility towards the EU shown by people like you and the increasing amount of hassle, expense and red tape they will face if they do choose to come here.

I notice you completely ignore my question at the start and haven't addressed most of my points above. 

I think we can move on. 

Nice try but as usual the evidence you've actually bothered to post is poor and doesn't come close to the truth.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7783#fullreport

"While it is likely that there has been an overall increase in the number of NHS staff with EU nationality since 2016, we can’t be sure about the scale of the change. "

Looking at individual nationalities, only Spanish nationals have seen a substantial recorded decrease since June 2016, from 7,240 to 5,899 (a fall of 19%). 

 

On the flipside, it is true that as a percentage, EU nationals are joining the NHS at a slightly lower rate and are leaving at a slightly higher rate. This being said, it's almost all accounted for by nurses and not other positions. The position of doctor has seen a nominal decrease.

In 2015/16, 11% of those joining the NHS were EU nationals (counting those for whom a nationality was known). In 2016/17, this fell to 9%, and in 2017/18 the figure was 7.9%. For nurses the percentage of EU joiners fell from 19% in 2015/16 to 12.4% in 2016/17, then further to 7.9% in 2017/18. and 7.6% in 2018/19.

In 2017/18, 12.8% of nurses leaving the NHS were EU nationals, up from 9% in 2015/16. This fell slightly to 11.8% in 2018/19.

 

So the actual facts don't really point at brexit at all. Those in the lowest paid job role are increasingly more likely to leave and less likely to join. Those in higher paid positions are more likely to stay. The stats show that those leaving are overwhelmingly Spanish too. There's 26 other countries in the EU.

 

And a few final points about your post;

1. I didn't ignore anything?

2. Can you explain why it is that you believe that nurses are put off moving to the UK because "people like me" are hostile towards a corrupt and uneconomical political union?

 

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Don't start posting sensible comments on here NFII. Don't you realise the crisis in the NHS is caused by all these immigrants over here? 70-80 million Turks anytime soon. 

My comment about nurses' numbers dropping stands, RB. As does the one about fewer applicants for consultants jobs. We will of course have a clearer picture of the rising crisis in the next year or two.

I've given you comments by some nurses themselves. If you don't want to believe what they say that's up to you.

If you think Brexit makes the UK a more attractive place for EU people to live and work here then more fool you. Self evidently it doesn't. Common sense tells you that.

We can swap statistics till the cows come home but the fact of the matter is that there is a severe shortage of staff in the NHS, nurses principally, and anything that deters workers from overseas from coming here is a negative in my book. All the professional organisations say the same - the BMA, GMC and the RCN. Again, take it or leave it.                                                                                                                                              

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They're not leaving because of brexit though. Or at least you simply cannot glean that from your stats.

If 2 nurses in your article are leaving because of brexit then fair play. Doesn't tell us anything about the other few thousand.

Making the country better is the same as making it a more attractive destination for immigrants. That is common sense. We've got a crisis in the EU. Nurses are leaving in the EU. You cannot blame the threat of brexit however desperate you are. The NHS is in a bad state after years of neglect happening inside of the EU.

Why not try something different?

Not sure what you are on about 70 million turks for?

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No, you can't blame it all on Brexit. Fair enough. But it's a contributory factor.

I'm on about the Turks because of all the propaganda linking Turkey with problems in our NHS. Blatant lies. 

Related image        stream_8ae6a9c0-30e0-438c-ad98-8dba5f42e609.png

The Express published an apology a few days later but not on the front page! The Facebook ad has disappeared into the ether, conveniently. 

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