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NHS The sinking flagship


geosname

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I don't think simply pouring money into the NHS is the answer..... it never worked in the past.

Countless parties have promised it at election time to get votes, some have actually managed it, but it's just a sticky plaster when major surgery is needed.

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It's an outrage that the UK has to import Doctors and Nurses from developing countries depriving such countries of skilled medical professionals which they desperately need. Why doesn't the UK open new Medical schools and expand existing ones to train staff and fund it from reducing the number of University departments which offer degrees which are less important to the countries well being and economy. there are many people who apply each year to Medical School who are turned down based on insufficient number of places or certainly there was in my day. 

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13 hours ago, TheSage said:

The BMA has stated on several occasions that leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS. The UK has 1 doctor per 366 patients. The EU has 1 per 288. We currently have 10,000 doctoral vacancies and 41,000 nursing vacancies. And, no, it isn't all down to Brexit. Anti-immigration diatribe from the right and the Windrush scandal is still affecting recruitment. So is the falling pound.

80% of our medicines and drugs come from the EU.

Since 2016 there has been a 91% fall in EU nurses coming to work here. Over 7,000 left last year.

We will no longer be members of the European Medicines Agency.

Cancer drugs remain a concern as isotopes cannot be stored for hours on end and currently most are sourced at the drop of a hat from the EU.

Last winter there were more trolley waits of more than 4 hours than the total amount in the same months in the previous 4 years combined. 

Yeh, Brexit is a great idea for the NHS. 

Lots of interesting stats there but as with many of your posts, brexit is actually the answer to solving many of them and is at least not a barrier to solving the others.

 

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51 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Lots of interesting stats there but as with many of your posts, brexit is actually the answer to solving many of them and is at least not a barrier to solving the others.

 

Also just reading that the chief exec at the nhs said there will be no drugs shortages if everyone does their job. The health secretary has said that we have plans in place for any brexit scenario.

Stop project fear.

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Bingo. I claim my prize.

You haven't used that one for a while. Lately it's been fake news. 

Recruitment is already a critical issue with the NHS and leaving the EU will make it worse. It's simple common sense that if you make it harder and more expensive for foreign nationals to work here - as well as denigrating the Union in which they live and whipping up a press frenzy about immigrants - then it will get more difficult to recruit staff. We are short of thousands of workers now and will need many more in the future. Another 250,000 in the next ten years to meet demand.

For example, 841 workers of EU origin have left Oxford University Hospital Trust since 2016. In the period 2010-2015, in comparison, 410 left. Fact.

Barts hospital trust in London has seen a fall of around 30% in recruitment of EU workers since the referendum. Fact.

The Nuffield Trust reports that there has been "a net loss of 1584 nurses from the EU, compared to the usual net inflow before 2016." Fact.

What the figures are like now we can only guess although the GMC did say last December, to be fair, that the numbers of graduate doctors had not as yet decreased.

Like many other sectors the NHS survives on non UK staff. Anything that makes overseas recruitment more awkward harms that process. It's self evident common sense.

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On 11/08/2019 at 18:35, geosname said:

I don't think simply pouring money into the NHS is the answer..... it never worked in the past.

Countless parties have promised it at election time to get votes, some have actually managed it, but it's just a sticky plaster when major surgery is needed.

What would your preferred treatment be Doctor Geo?

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2 hours ago, TheSage said:

Bingo. I claim my prize.

You haven't used that one for a while. Lately it's been fake news. 

Recruitment is already a critical issue with the NHS and leaving the EU will make it worse. It's simple common sense that if you make it harder and more expensive for foreign nationals to work here - as well as denigrating the Union in which they live and whipping up a press frenzy about immigrants - then it will get more difficult to recruit staff. We are short of thousands of workers now and will need many more in the future. Another 250,000 in the next ten years to meet demand.

For example, 841 workers of EU origin have left Oxford University Hospital Trust since 2016. In the period 2010-2015, in comparison, 410 left. Fact.

Barts hospital trust in London has seen a fall of around 30% in recruitment of EU workers since the referendum. Fact.

The Nuffield Trust reports that there has been "a net loss of 1584 nurses from the EU, compared to the usual net inflow before 2016." Fact.

What the figures are like now we can only guess although the GMC did say last December, to be fair, that the numbers of graduate doctors had not as yet decreased.

Like many other sectors the NHS survives on non UK staff. Anything that makes overseas recruitment more awkward harms that process. It's self evident common sense.

That's a Remainers point of view and focuses on workers from the EU.Hopefully when we leave the EU the number of citizens coming in will be greatly reduced and we can recruit accordingly from all parts of the world.

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I did focus on EU workers, yes, to be fair. But we've got a shortage NOW of around 100,000 staff in the health services and with rising demand the NHS reckon they'll need maybe 250,000 more employees in the next decade. 

Why haven't we filled these 100,000 vacancies already if it's as easy as you say it is?

EU workers make up around 62,000 of the NHS workforce. If we start losing them on top of the current 100,000 vacancies do you not think it will make a difficult recruitment problem many times worse?

The Royal College of GPS, the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association have all expressed grave concerns about our ability to recruit and retrain staff because of Brexit.

That's the view of medical professionals.

 

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1 hour ago, TheSage said:

I did focus on EU workers, yes, to be fair. But we've got a shortage NOW of around 100,000 staff in the health services and with rising demand the NHS reckon they'll need maybe 250,000 more employees in the next decade. 

Why haven't we filled these 100,000 vacancies already if it's as easy as you say it is?

EU workers make up around 62,000 of the NHS workforce. If we start losing them on top of the current 100,000 vacancies do you not think it will make a difficult recruitment problem many times worse?

The Royal College of GPS, the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association have all expressed grave concerns about our ability to recruit and retrain staff because of Brexit.

That's the view of medical professionals.

 

Forgive me for having no faith in the BMA but six weeks ago they voted literally to invite the whole planet to use the NHS free of charge.

People expect our NHS services to be reserved for those who live in the UK and are paying into the system.

The BMA are completely out of touch with the British people.

 

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16 hours ago, TheSage said:

Bingo. I claim my prize.

You haven't used that one for a while. Lately it's been fake news. 

Recruitment is already a critical issue with the NHS and leaving the EU will make it worse. It's simple common sense that if you make it harder and more expensive for foreign nationals to work here - as well as denigrating the Union in which they live and whipping up a press frenzy about immigrants - then it will get more difficult to recruit staff. We are short of thousands of workers now and will need many more in the future. Another 250,000 in the next ten years to meet demand.

For example, 841 workers of EU origin have left Oxford University Hospital Trust since 2016. In the period 2010-2015, in comparison, 410 left. Fact.

Barts hospital trust in London has seen a fall of around 30% in recruitment of EU workers since the referendum. Fact.

The Nuffield Trust reports that there has been "a net loss of 1584 nurses from the EU, compared to the usual net inflow before 2016." Fact.

What the figures are like now we can only guess although the GMC did say last December, to be fair, that the numbers of graduate doctors had not as yet decreased.

Like many other sectors the NHS survives on non UK staff. Anything that makes overseas recruitment more awkward harms that process. It's self evident common sense.

Great facts sage but where did the nurses go? Did they all leave the country or have they changed employment and are still counted in the stats? 

You'll get your prize on 31st october hopefully. Freedom.

And I agree, making it harder and more expensive for people to come to the uk to fill vital holes in our workforce would be bad. 

So let's make it easier and cheaper for those people to come here. Solved. In one sentence. 

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13 hours ago, TheSage said:

I did focus on EU workers, yes, to be fair. But we've got a shortage NOW of around 100,000 staff in the health services and with rising demand the NHS reckon they'll need maybe 250,000 more employees in the next decade. 

Why haven't we filled these 100,000 vacancies already if it's as easy as you say it is?

EU workers make up around 62,000 of the NHS workforce. If we start losing them on top of the current 100,000 vacancies do you not think it will make a difficult recruitment problem many times worse?

The Royal College of GPS, the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association have all expressed grave concerns about our ability to recruit and retrain staff because of Brexit.

That's the view of medical professionals.

 

Cause and effect Sage?

You are only focusing on one cause.

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So why haven't we filled those 100,00 vacancies? And how does making it harder for EU health workers to get here help us?

I'm not focusing on anything. I'm simple telling you what the professionals who work in the NHS are saying. I'm giving you the numbers.

You choose to ignore all the warnings and the growing number of vacancies because the facts don't suit. Please give me the names of 2-3 national health bodies who believe that Brexit is good? I won't hold my breath.

And claiming that the BMA are out of touch with the population when they spend all their lives 24/7 caring for people is ludicrous.

It's the government's job to sort out administrative details surrounding treatment. It's a doctor's job to treat people in need. Are you suggesting that a doctor should refuse to treat someone let's say who is pregnant or has cancer because they supposedly can't prove they have a legal right to be here? 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, TheSage said:

So why haven't we filled those 100,00 vacancies? And how does making it harder for EU health workers to get here help us?

I'm not focusing on anything. I'm simple telling you what the professionals who work in the NHS are saying. I'm giving you the numbers.

You choose to ignore all the warnings and the growing number of vacancies because the facts don't suit. Please give me the names of 2-3 national health bodies who believe that Brexit is good? I won't hold my breath.

And claiming that the BMA are out of touch with the population when they spend all their lives 24/7 caring for people is ludicrous.

It's the government's job to sort out administrative details surrounding treatment. It's a doctor's job to treat people in need. Are you suggesting that a doctor should refuse to treat someone let's say who is pregnant or has cancer because they supposedly can't prove they have a legal right to be here? 

 

 

No I'm suggesting we are being taken for a ride by freeloaders and the BMA are supporting it?

You are correct in stating that it is a doctors job to treat people in need,so why dont they just concentrate on that.It isn't their job to decide policy on health tourism,which is making waiting times even longer.Some people I'm afraid are taking advantage of our generosity and taxpayers deserve better.

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Are there any figures for the money recovered from your so called freeloaders i.e. people without health insurance ? There is no point in Doctors/Nurses filling in forms if the admin staff  do not have  the time to chase the civil servants or whoever deals with the foreign authorities to recover the money. We have not reached the US way of turning people away for emergency treatment.

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