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The Myth that is Tom Pope


philmpv

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Followers of Popelam please do not continue to read this thread. I am about to question the Prophet....

 

I am strongly of the opinion that Tom needs to be dropped, immediately, and the apparent future strategy of building a team around him, a 33 year old immobile target man discontinued.

 

THE BASIC STATS

 

Over the past 40 seasons, our average goals for is just under 59 goals per season. For full seasons of teams including Tom Pope, that average drops, markedly, to just under 52 goals per season. This is despite the remarkable promotion season (87 goals). Take that season out, and the average drops to a paltry 46 goals per season. So, I think it is fair to say that a team including Tom Pope scores less goals than the average.

 

Many reasons may be postulated for the stats, and I would agree with some, but not all. In that flying season, we had great wingers supplying quality balls. We no longer have that, and haven't for some time. So, the big question, for me, is why we persist in trying to 'feed the Pope' when it is abudantly clear that we do not have the tools to do this. The crossing ability within the squad is, quite simply, shocking. This is not Tom's fault, of course, but would you continue to try to light a wet match, or find another way to start a fire?

 

HIS PERCEIVED HEADING ABILITY AND HOLD UP PLAY

 

'Popeball' is, of course, the system of choice, and has been whenever Tom is playing. Hit it as long as you can in the direction of Tom Pope and hope that he can make something of it. Which is fine if he generally makes something of it. He doesn't. He is generally marked by 2 CBs, making his life even more difficult. 8 times out of 10, he misses the ball, 1 time out of 10 he is penalised for a foul, given his inclination to grab whatever he can of his oppos, even in full view of the ref, and 1 time out of 10 he wins the header. Now if, when he actually wins the header, it was a targeted flick on or knock down, great. It isn't. The ball generally bounces off his head (which I think must be shaped like a sherrif's badge) quite randomly, and often back up into the air, leaving the CBs to win the second ball. In short, most attempts at Popeball result in possession quite easily being given back to the opposition. It's all well and good trying to get players in and around Tom, but if he cannot actually do anything other than randomly ping the ball back up into the air, then this will rarely succeed. When was the last time that we scored a goal from a targeted Pope flick on?

 

Another valid point is his immobility. If the ball isn't played to him on a sixpence, he can't get it, quite simply as he's both too slow and immobile to move a great deal. Often, a temper tantrum ensues at this point. When he does manage to win a ball, control it, and lay it off, he is so slow at getting into the area that the attacking momentum created is gone by the time that he does. The best example of this was the recent home game where he was partnered with Whitfield. Time and time again in the first half, Whitfield got in behind, looked up, and Tom was still some way from the area, leaving Ben with no choice but to try and take it on himself.

 

 

THE TEMPER TANTRUMS / ABUSE

 

This is a trait that really rankles with me.

 

I am all for players talking to each other and giving contructive criticism if this is warranted, even if this is shouted. Nothing wrong with that. However, to go to such extremes as Tom appears to, with the angry face, vitriol spewing from his mouth, pirouettes, and arms flailing does is completely unwarranted and, more importantly, not helpful at all to a largely young and inexperienced squad, and can do nothing but increase the liklihood of nerves and lack of confidence amongst such players. And this is the captain! A prime example of this was actually immediately prior to him missing that sitter against Cambridge. If you watch the replay, you will see the pirouetting Tom screaming abuse at the crosser, immediately getting the ball then, only to miss. I can't help feel that if, rather than having a tantrum as he was at that time, he would ver likely have scored.

 

To have a captain conducting himself in this way is not, in my opinion, conducive of any element of good morale, and will certainly not improve the situation.

 

Askey is now the third manager to see Tom Pope as the be all and end all, a knight in shining armour, such a quality player that the team must be built around him. If we continue down this road, we will only continue to fail and struggle. Aspin once said, I belive, something along the lines of 'there's not strikers many like Tom about any more'. Perhaps there's a reason for that? The game has moved on from permitting a solid grappling battle of strength between oppos. The amount of fouls that Tom concedes (rightly or wrongly) is testament to this.

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Followers of Popelam please do not continue to read this thread. I am about to question the Prophet....

 

I am strongly of the opinion that Tom needs to be dropped, immediately, and the apparent future strategy of building a team around him, a 33 year old immobile target man discontinued.

 

THE BASIC STATS

 

Over the past 40 seasons, our average goals for is just under 59 goals per season. For full seasons of teams including Tom Pope, that average drops, markedly, to just under 52 goals per season. This is despite the remarkable promotion season (87 goals). Take that season out, and the average drops to a paltry 46 goals per season. So, I think it is fair to say that a team including Tom Pope scores less goals than the average.

 

Many reasons may be postulated for the stats, and I would agree with some, but not all. In that flying season, we had great wingers supplying quality balls. We no longer have that, and haven't for some time. So, the big question, for me, is why we persist in trying to 'feed the Pope' when it is abudantly clear that we do not have the tools to do this. The crossing ability within the squad is, quite simply, shocking. This is not Tom's fault, of course, but would you continue to try to light a wet match, or find another way to start a fire?

 

HIS PERCEIVED HEADING ABILITY AND HOLD UP PLAY

 

'Popeball' is, of course, the system of choice, and has been whenever Tom is playing. Hit it as long as you can in the direction of Tom Pope and hope that he can make something of it. Which is fine if he generally makes something of it. He doesn't. He is generally marked by 2 CBs, making his life even more difficult. 8 times out of 10, he misses the ball, 1 time out of 10 he is penalised for a foul, given his inclination to grab whatever he can of his oppos, even in full view of the ref, and 1 time out of 10 he wins the header. Now if, when he actually wins the header, it was a targeted flick on or knock down, great. It isn't. The ball generally bounces off his head (which I think must be shaped like a sherrif's badge) quite randomly, and often back up into the air, leaving the CBs to win the second ball. In short, most attempts at Popeball result in possession quite easily being given back to the opposition. It's all well and good trying to get players in and around Tom, but if he cannot actually do anything other than randomly ping the ball back up into the air, then this will rarely succeed. When was the last time that we scored a goal from a targeted Pope flick on?

 

Another valid point is his immobility. If the ball isn't played to him on a sixpence, he can't get it, quite simply as he's both too slow and immobile to move a great deal. Often, a temper tantrum ensues at this point. When he does manage to win a ball, control it, and lay it off, he is so slow at getting into the area that the attacking momentum created is gone by the time that he does. The best example of this was the recent home game where he was partnered with Whitfield. Time and time again in the first half, Whitfield got in behind, looked up, and Tom was still some way from the area, leaving Ben with no choice but to try and take it on himself.

 

 

THE TEMPER TANTRUMS / ABUSE

 

This is a trait that really rankles with me.

 

I am all for players talking to each other and giving contructive criticism if this is warranted, even if this is shouted. Nothing wrong with that. However, to go to such extremes as Tom appears to, with the angry face, vitriol spewing from his mouth, pirouettes, and arms flailing does is completely unwarranted and, more importantly, not helpful at all to a largely young and inexperienced squad, and can do nothing but increase the liklihood of nerves and lack of confidence amongst such players. And this is the captain! A prime example of this was actually immediately prior to him missing that sitter against Cambridge. If you watch the replay, you will see the pirouetting Tom screaming abuse at the crosser, immediately getting the ball then, only to miss. I can't help feel that if, rather than having a tantrum as he was at that time, he would ver likely have scored.

 

To have a captain conducting himself in this way is not, in my opinion, conducive of any element of good morale, and will certainly not improve the situation.

 

Askey is now the third manager to see Tom Pope as the be all and end all, a knight in shining armour, such a quality player that the team must be built around him. If we continue down this road, we will only continue to fail and struggle. Aspin once said, I belive, something along the lines of 'there's not strikers many like Tom about any more'. Perhaps there's a reason for that? The game has moved on from permitting a solid grappling battle of strength between oppos. The amount of fouls that Tom concedes (rightly or wrongly) is testament to this.

 

 

Absolute garbage post

 

Can understand comments of ' having a bad game ' ' having a bad spell '

but this rubbish doesn't deserve further reply.

 

Except to say, have you had a look around the rest of the team for the last 3 years.

Where is the :

Quality

Creativity

Skill

let alone the :

Passion

Desire

 

Wish the rest of the team had 25% of what Pope offers a a front man

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Look at Pope elsewhere and players like Le Fondre who loved playing with him...

 

The issue isn't Tom Pope, the issue is the set up around Tom Pope... for a start get a decent partner with him and they'd score goals, the promotion season we had goals from Williamson, Dodds, Hughes, JMW, Vincent for example who all worked around Pope and his 33 goals.

 

The Final ball into Pope has been dire this season in the main and the lack of anyone around him has been a big problem also, he actually has won far more aerial duels than any other League Two attacker, problem is if no one is within 25 yards of him what is he meant to do with it. In fairness Saturday saw an improvement certainly first half with bodies getting around him and he could of had a hatrick first half.

 

The goal issue is because Pope is our only goal threat, not because he isn't doing his bit.

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I 100% know where the opening poster is coming from it makes perfect sense.

 

Our entire game revolves around pope. Now that isn’t his fault per say but it does. The thing I’ve always disliked about pope and I got hammered on here for saying it a few years back is his treatment of other players. Constantly moaning and barraging them.

 

I wouldn’t drop him and certainly think there are much much bigger issues but he’s not immune from critism especially when he could’ve won us the last two games and made us essentially safe if he had scored.

 

For me the bigger issue is a plan b or a different plan a. Playing something different rather than this hoof ball ***** we do when pope plays. He’s good in the air and wins more headers than anyone I’ve seen at this level but we can’t insist on doing that constantly. I’d look to play two wingers far up and get it on the floor to then and cross into pope and have other attacking mids behind ready to hit a rebound or knockdown.

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If we had passed the ball to pope in the box all season we wouldn't be in a relegation battle.

 

Pass the ball to him 40 yards from goal with no one around him to help and we may as well pack up and go home.

 

He scored all those goals in the promotion season because he had service.

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Followers of Popelam please do not continue to read this thread. I am about to question the Prophet....

 

I am strongly of the opinion that Tom needs to be dropped, immediately, and the apparent future strategy of building a team around him, a 33 year old immobile target man discontinued.

 

THE BASIC STATS

 

Over the past 40 seasons, our average goals for is just under 59 goals per season. For full seasons of teams including Tom Pope, that average drops, markedly, to just under 52 goals per season. This is despite the remarkable promotion season (87 goals). Take that season out, and the average drops to a paltry 46 goals per season. So, I think it is fair to say that a team including Tom Pope scores less goals than the average.

 

Many reasons may be postulated for the stats, and I would agree with some, but not all. In that flying season, we had great wingers supplying quality balls. We no longer have that, and haven't for some time. So, the big question, for me, is why we persist in trying to 'feed the Pope' when it is abudantly clear that we do not have the tools to do this. The crossing ability within the squad is, quite simply, shocking. This is not Tom's fault, of course, but would you continue to try to light a wet match, or find another way to start a fire?

 

HIS PERCEIVED HEADING ABILITY AND HOLD UP PLAY

 

'Popeball' is, of course, the system of choice, and has been whenever Tom is playing. Hit it as long as you can in the direction of Tom Pope and hope that he can make something of it. Which is fine if he generally makes something of it. He doesn't. He is generally marked by 2 CBs, making his life even more difficult. 8 times out of 10, he misses the ball, 1 time out of 10 he is penalised for a foul, given his inclination to grab whatever he can of his oppos, even in full view of the ref, and 1 time out of 10 he wins the header. Now if, when he actually wins the header, it was a targeted flick on or knock down, great. It isn't. The ball generally bounces off his head (which I think must be shaped like a sherrif's badge) quite randomly, and often back up into the air, leaving the CBs to win the second ball. In short, most attempts at Popeball result in possession quite easily being given back to the opposition. It's all well and good trying to get players in and around Tom, but if he cannot actually do anything other than randomly ping the ball back up into the air, then this will rarely succeed. When was the last time that we scored a goal from a targeted Pope flick on?

 

Another valid point is his immobility. If the ball isn't played to him on a sixpence, he can't get it, quite simply as he's both too slow and immobile to move a great deal. Often, a temper tantrum ensues at this point. When he does manage to win a ball, control it, and lay it off, he is so slow at getting into the area that the attacking momentum created is gone by the time that he does. The best example of this was the recent home game where he was partnered with Whitfield. Time and time again in the first half, Whitfield got in behind, looked up, and Tom was still some way from the area, leaving Ben with no choice but to try and take it on himself.

 

 

THE TEMPER TANTRUMS / ABUSE

 

This is a trait that really rankles with me.

 

I am all for players talking to each other and giving contructive criticism if this is warranted, even if this is shouted. Nothing wrong with that. However, to go to such extremes as Tom appears to, with the angry face, vitriol spewing from his mouth, pirouettes, and arms flailing does is completely unwarranted and, more importantly, not helpful at all to a largely young and inexperienced squad, and can do nothing but increase the liklihood of nerves and lack of confidence amongst such players. And this is the captain! A prime example of this was actually immediately prior to him missing that sitter against Cambridge. If you watch the replay, you will see the pirouetting Tom screaming abuse at the crosser, immediately getting the ball then, only to miss. I can't help feel that if, rather than having a tantrum as he was at that time, he would ver likely have scored.

 

To have a captain conducting himself in this way is not, in my opinion, conducive of any element of good morale, and will certainly not improve the situation.

 

Askey is now the third manager to see Tom Pope as the be all and end all, a knight in shining armour, such a quality player that the team must be built around him. If we continue down this road, we will only continue to fail and struggle. Aspin once said, I belive, something along the lines of 'there's not strikers many like Tom about any more'. Perhaps there's a reason for that? The game has moved on from permitting a solid grappling battle of strength between oppos. The amount of fouls that Tom concedes (rightly or wrongly) is testament to this.

 

A lot of what you say makes a lot of sense. The main issue is that we don’t score whether he plays or not. One goal in the four games he missed and no goals in the two since he came back. The one area that I totally agree with you is regarding the captaincy and his constant ranting and raving at his team mates. The captaincy would be better given to someone else.

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Followers of Popelam please do not continue to read this thread. I am about to question the Prophet....

 

I am strongly of the opinion that Tom needs to be dropped, immediately, and the apparent future strategy of building a team around him, a 33 year old immobile target man discontinued.

 

THE BASIC STATS

 

Over the past 40 seasons, our average goals for is just under 59 goals per season. For full seasons of teams including Tom Pope, that average drops, markedly, to just under 52 goals per season. This is despite the remarkable promotion season (87 goals). Take that season out, and the average drops to a paltry 46 goals per season. So, I think it is fair to say that a team including Tom Pope scores less goals than the average.

 

Many reasons may be postulated for the stats, and I would agree with some, but not all. In that flying season, we had great wingers supplying quality balls. We no longer have that, and haven't for some time. So, the big question, for me, is why we persist in trying to 'feed the Pope' when it is abudantly clear that we do not have the tools to do this. The crossing ability within the squad is, quite simply, shocking. This is not Tom's fault, of course, but would you continue to try to light a wet match, or find another way to start a fire?

 

HIS PERCEIVED HEADING ABILITY AND HOLD UP PLAY

 

'Popeball' is, of course, the system of choice, and has been whenever Tom is playing. Hit it as long as you can in the direction of Tom Pope and hope that he can make something of it. Which is fine if he generally makes something of it. He doesn't. He is generally marked by 2 CBs, making his life even more difficult. 8 times out of 10, he misses the ball, 1 time out of 10 he is penalised for a foul, given his inclination to grab whatever he can of his oppos, even in full view of the ref, and 1 time out of 10 he wins the header. Now if, when he actually wins the header, it was a targeted flick on or knock down, great. It isn't. The ball generally bounces off his head (which I think must be shaped like a sherrif's badge) quite randomly, and often back up into the air, leaving the CBs to win the second ball. In short, most attempts at Popeball result in possession quite easily being given back to the opposition. It's all well and good trying to get players in and around Tom, but if he cannot actually do anything other than randomly ping the ball back up into the air, then this will rarely succeed. When was the last time that we scored a goal from a targeted Pope flick on?

 

Another valid point is his immobility. If the ball isn't played to him on a sixpence, he can't get it, quite simply as he's both too slow and immobile to move a great deal. Often, a temper tantrum ensues at this point. When he does manage to win a ball, control it, and lay it off, he is so slow at getting into the area that the attacking momentum created is gone by the time that he does. The best example of this was the recent home game where he was partnered with Whitfield. Time and time again in the first half, Whitfield got in behind, looked up, and Tom was still some way from the area, leaving Ben with no choice but to try and take it on himself.

 

 

THE TEMPER TANTRUMS / ABUSE

 

This is a trait that really rankles with me.

 

I am all for players talking to each other and giving contructive criticism if this is warranted, even if this is shouted. Nothing wrong with that. However, to go to such extremes as Tom appears to, with the angry face, vitriol spewing from his mouth, pirouettes, and arms flailing does is completely unwarranted and, more importantly, not helpful at all to a largely young and inexperienced squad, and can do nothing but increase the liklihood of nerves and lack of confidence amongst such players. And this is the captain! A prime example of this was actually immediately prior to him missing that sitter against Cambridge. If you watch the replay, you will see the pirouetting Tom screaming abuse at the crosser, immediately getting the ball then, only to miss. I can't help feel that if, rather than having a tantrum as he was at that time, he would ver likely have scored.

 

To have a captain conducting himself in this way is not, in my opinion, conducive of any element of good morale, and will certainly not improve the situation.

 

Askey is now the third manager to see Tom Pope as the be all and end all, a knight in shining armour, such a quality player that the team must be built around him. If we continue down this road, we will only continue to fail and struggle. Aspin once said, I belive, something along the lines of 'there's not strikers many like Tom about any more'. Perhaps there's a reason for that? The game has moved on from permitting a solid grappling battle of strength between oppos. The amount of fouls that Tom concedes (rightly or wrongly) is testament to this.

 

100% correct.

 

Laughable that a striker for the least prolific team in the EFL can have such influence. Our last good performance (and win) was at Crawley when, surprise surprise, Tom Pope did not feature.

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THE TEMPER TANTRUMS / ABUSE

 

This is a trait that really rankles with me.

 

I am all for players talking to each other and giving contructive criticism if this is warranted, even if this is shouted. Nothing wrong with that. However, to go to such extremes as Tom appears to, with the angry face, vitriol spewing from his mouth, pirouettes, and arms flailing does is completely unwarranted and, more importantly, not helpful at all to a largely young and inexperienced squad, and can do nothing but increase the liklihood of nerves and lack of confidence amongst such players. And this is the captain! A prime example of this was actually immediately prior to him missing that sitter against Cambridge. If you watch the replay, you will see the pirouetting Tom screaming abuse at the crosser, immediately getting the ball then, only to miss. I can't help feel that if, rather than having a tantrum as he was at that time, he would ver likely have scored.

 

To have a captain conducting himself in this way is not, in my opinion, conducive of any element of good morale, and will certainly not improve the situation.

 

Askey is now the third manager to see Tom Pope as the be all and end all, a knight in shining armour, such a quality player that the team must be built around him. If we continue down this road, we will only continue to fail and struggle. Aspin once said, I belive, something along the lines of 'there's not strikers many like Tom about any more'. Perhaps there's a reason for that? The game has moved on from permitting a solid grappling battle of strength between oppos. The amount of fouls that Tom concedes (rightly or wrongly) is testament to this.

 

One of the best posts ever on OVF. I keep saying it, but his conduct towards Miller down at Stevenage in Septemeber was a total disgrace. Miller comes on, puts one on a plate for Pope who misses from 8 yards. Next time Miller gets the ball he quite rightly takes aim and narrowly misses with a rasping drive from 25 yards. Pope just barked at him for a good 2 minutes for not giving him the ball. Absolute bully who I imagine picks the team in many ways by alienating those he does not like (such as Miller).

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One of the best posts ever on OVF. I keep saying it, but his conduct towards Miller down at Stevenage in Septemeber was a total disgrace. Miller comes on, puts one on a plate for Pope who misses from 8 yards. Next time Miller gets the ball he quite rightly takes aim and narrowly misses with a rasping drive from 25 yards. Pope just barked at him for a good 2 minutes for not giving him the ball. Absolute bully who I imagine picks the team in many ways by alienating those he does not like (such as Miller).

 

So in a way Pope is similar to how you are on here? (With your torrent of immature abuse aimed at fans who went to the u-23 game v Stoke)

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So in a way Pope is similar to how you are on here? (With your torrent of immature abuse aimed at fans who went to the u-23 game v Stoke)

 

No, anyone who went to that game is scum.

 

Good attempt at derailing a thread questioning the untouchable player who is a major contributing factor to our on the field performances. People will still be making excuses for the guy when we're down in the National North.

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Some fair points. What's the alternative? He is the only one in the squad with a track record of scoring goals in the Football League. He isn't the player he was, I grant you, but he is a damn sight better than anyone else we have at putting the ball in the net.

 

Whitfield is more creative than Pope at creating openings for other team members and himself, so I disagree with you there. The track record will mean nothing when Vae are relegated to the fifth division (Which seems more likely every week)

 

Face it...no player has had as many chances at playing badly and being picked week in week out than Pope has...it is only logical that he will weigh in with the odd header here and there

 

The bottom line is Vale have become too predictable and Pope is the main reason for this

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Followers of Popelam please do not continue to read this thread. I am about to question the Prophet....

 

I am strongly of the opinion that Tom needs to be dropped, immediately, and the apparent future strategy of building a team around him, a 33 year old immobile target man discontinued.

 

THE BASIC STATS

 

Over the past 40 seasons, our average goals for is just under 59 goals per season. For full seasons of teams including Tom Pope, that average drops, markedly, to just under 52 goals per season. This is despite the remarkable promotion season (87 goals). Take that season out, and the average drops to a paltry 46 goals per season. So, I think it is fair to say that a team including Tom Pope scores less goals than the average.

 

Many reasons may be postulated for the stats, and I would agree with some, but not all. In that flying season, we had great wingers supplying quality balls. We no longer have that, and haven't for some time. So, the big question, for me, is why we persist in trying to 'feed the Pope' when it is abudantly clear that we do not have the tools to do this. The crossing ability within the squad is, quite simply, shocking. This is not Tom's fault, of course, but would you continue to try to light a wet match, or find another way to start a fire?

 

HIS PERCEIVED HEADING ABILITY AND HOLD UP PLAY

 

'Popeball' is, of course, the system of choice, and has been whenever Tom is playing. Hit it as long as you can in the direction of Tom Pope and hope that he can make something of it. Which is fine if he generally makes something of it. He doesn't. He is generally marked by 2 CBs, making his life even more difficult. 8 times out of 10, he misses the ball, 1 time out of 10 he is penalised for a foul, given his inclination to grab whatever he can of his oppos, even in full view of the ref, and 1 time out of 10 he wins the header. Now if, when he actually wins the header, it was a targeted flick on or knock down, great. It isn't. The ball generally bounces off his head (which I think must be shaped like a sherrif's badge) quite randomly, and often back up into the air, leaving the CBs to win the second ball. In short, most attempts at Popeball result in possession quite easily being given back to the opposition. It's all well and good trying to get players in and around Tom, but if he cannot actually do anything other than randomly ping the ball back up into the air, then this will rarely succeed. When was the last time that we scored a goal from a targeted Pope flick on?

 

Another valid point is his immobility. If the ball isn't played to him on a sixpence, he can't get it, quite simply as he's both too slow and immobile to move a great deal. Often, a temper tantrum ensues at this point. When he does manage to win a ball, control it, and lay it off, he is so slow at getting into the area that the attacking momentum created is gone by the time that he does. The best example of this was the recent home game where he was partnered with Whitfield. Time and time again in the first half, Whitfield got in behind, looked up, and Tom was still some way from the area, leaving Ben with no choice but to try and take it on himself.

 

 

THE TEMPER TANTRUMS / ABUSE

 

This is a trait that really rankles with me.

 

I am all for players talking to each other and giving contructive criticism if this is warranted, even if this is shouted. Nothing wrong with that. However, to go to such extremes as Tom appears to, with the angry face, vitriol spewing from his mouth, pirouettes, and arms flailing does is completely unwarranted and, more importantly, not helpful at all to a largely young and inexperienced squad, and can do nothing but increase the liklihood of nerves and lack of confidence amongst such players. And this is the captain! A prime example of this was actually immediately prior to him missing that sitter against Cambridge. If you watch the replay, you will see the pirouetting Tom screaming abuse at the crosser, immediately getting the ball then, only to miss. I can't help feel that if, rather than having a tantrum as he was at that time, he would ver likely have scored.

 

To have a captain conducting himself in this way is not, in my opinion, conducive of any element of good morale, and will certainly not improve the situation.

 

Askey is now the third manager to see Tom Pope as the be all and end all, a knight in shining armour, such a quality player that the team must be built around him. If we continue down this road, we will only continue to fail and struggle. Aspin once said, I belive, something along the lines of 'there's not strikers many like Tom about any more'. Perhaps there's a reason for that? The game has moved on from permitting a solid grappling battle of strength between oppos. The amount of fouls that Tom concedes (rightly or wrongly) is testament to this.

 

Hard to argue against any of that logic mate, well thought out, researched and critiqued post.

 

Tin hat time though, you are going to give Owd Sage a funny turn 😂

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