Mass school shooting in US again

[Andyregs]

Pay attention, Trump attended the NRA conference a few weeks ago. So guess what? He likes his guns more than your favourites above. Oh by the way I said I didn't want him assassinated by a sniper. But given in my lifetime a president was killed by a sniper and another one shot at close quarters it is a conceivable possibility.

 

Pay attention, so did mike pence. As much as I hate trump, i dont think he cares, he just cares what people who vote for him want. Mike pence on the other hand does. And if trump left office, he would become president. Funnily enough though, when pence spoke at the NRA, they banned guns.

[Paul6754]

If 90% of the population believe this then change should be easy.

 

The will of the people isn't always the view of the politicians in many democratic countries, add to that the system of government in the USA, particularly each State has two Senators, throw in the influence of the NRA and there are the main problems.

 

You managed to vote in a lunatic president with less than 50% of the votes. We managed to leave Europe with 51% of the vote. Hell, countries have had revolutions with less support than 90% of the population.

 

I'm unsure what your point is but like it or lump it Trump was democratically elected. I think it was Winston Churchill who said something like, "Democracy isn't perfect but it's better than any alternative that's been tried".

 

I’d say the hope America has is the young. Depends on how much the older population and gun nuts can beat them down.

 

I agree about the young as they are the future voters but sadly the same obstacles will remain for a few year yet. I'd also support legislation to target the parents of under 18's to keep the firearms locked up and out of reach of "minors".

 

The people who think ‘Forget the murderers, it’s the victims who we need to insult and attack.’

The desperate attempts to divert attention away from the issue will continue. This morning a republican suggests that the problem isn’t guns, oh no, the schools have too many doors. You couldn’t write better satire if you tried.

 

I certainly don't support that view and as for the views of members of the NRA and some/most Republicans it's hard to accept that any rational, sane person could utter such absolute tripe.

[Andyregs]

The will of the people isn't always the view of the politicians in many democratic countries, add to that the system of government in the USA, particularly each State has two Senators, throw in the influence of the NRA and there are the main problems.

 

 

 

I'm unsure what your point is but like it or lump it Trump was democratically elected. I think it was Winston Churchill who said something like, "Democracy isn't perfect but it's better than any alternative that's been tried".

 

 

 

I agree about the young as they are the future voters but sadly the same obstacles will remain for a few year yet. I'd also support legislation to target the parents of under 18's to keep the firearms locked up and out of reach of "minors".

 

 

 

I certainly don't support that view and as for the views of members of the NRA and some/most Republicans it's hard to accept that any rational, sane person could utter such absolute tripe.

 

DOnt disagree with most of that, apart from if its the will of 90% of the population, then change can and should happen easily. Not overnight, but it will be inevitable. And its one thing saying on a poll taken after a school shooting that you want change, and then months later voting for their NRA sponsored republican politician. People are what they do, not what they say.

[Tone]

How did every single person die? How did every single person die in Florida? Etc, etc, etc etc. To divert the argument away from guns is clutching straws. Unless you are suggesting that Americans youths are more naturally predisposed to violence and murder. Which puts you in the same camp as bookworm, which I’d be concerned about. To say you need to protect schools better and then argument against any gun control is dishonest and pretty damn vulgar. There is an easy way to start protecting schools from guns, but ideology prevents you from going there.

I have no idea why a group of the population, which massively overlaps with those that would call themselves Christians in America, would also passionately defend the right to bear weapons that are designed to kills as many people as possible as quickly and efficiently as possibly. The mental gymnastics to get there must be phenomenal.

 

I suspect that you read something into my message that was not there.

I did not divert the argument. I just stated a fact.

I did not put forward any argument against additional controls on the sale of guns.

I did not defend the current laws.

My question is, what causes someone to choose to commit such a heinous act?

[Andyregs]

I suspect that you read something into my message that was not there.

I did not divert the argument. I just stated a fact.

I did not put forward any argument against additional controls on the sale of guns.

I did not defend the current laws.

My question is, what causes someone to choose to commit such a heinous act?

 

I totally agree that dealing with the root cause is vitally important. Perhaps spending some tax dollars and nationalised mental health care would help. However, restricting access to deadly weapons when such root causes exist are important. Our argument is like saying we shouldn’t invest in locks on doors or he police, we should look at the root cause of burglary. It’s not an either or argument.

So do you believe access to guns in America should be severely restricted then?

[Tone]

I totally agree that dealing with the root cause is vitally important. Perhaps spending some tax dollars and nationalised mental health care would help. However, restricting access to deadly weapons when such root causes exist are important. Our argument is like saying we shouldn’t invest in locks on doors or he police, we should look at the root cause of burglary. It’s not an either or argument.

So do you believe access to guns in America should be severely restricted then?

 

I do have concerns about how we deal with mental health issues, although that is not a unique issue to the USA.

I agree with more restrictions, but the record shows that, those cities that have the most stringent laws are not safer.

I was wondering, do schools in Stoke have restricted access?

[Andyregs]

I do have concerns about how we deal with mental health issues, although that is not a unique issue to the USA.

I agree with more restrictions, but the record shows that, those cities that have the most stringent laws are not safer.

I was wondering, do schools in Stoke have restricted access?

 

Yes. We don’t have an issue with students bringing guns into schools in stoke-on-Trent. I can only presume you meant something else as it’s a bizarre question? (Edit: you must do, though I was talking about restricting access to guns? What did you mean?)

What stats are you using for the comparison of gun laws to gun deaths? I’d be interested to see it as I’ve only seen the opposite. I literally just checked by googling US number of gun deaths and strictness of gun laws. And it all pointed towards the opposite. Ive linked a picture from one. I haven’t had time to look into how reliable the data is, but link after link suggested the same.

However you can also compare America to other western nations with strict guns laws and the differences are obvious.

[Tone]

Yes. We don’t have an issue with students bringing guns into schools in stoke-on-Trent. I can only presume you meant something else as it’s a bizarre question?

What stats are you using for the comparison of gun laws to gun deaths? I’d be interested to see it as I’ve only seen the opposite. I literally just checked by googling US number of gun deaths and strictness of gun laws. And it all pointed towards the opposite. Ive linked a picture from one. I haven’t had time to look into how reliable the data is, but link after link suggested the same.

However you can also compare America to other western nations with strict guns laws and the differences are obvious.

 

My question was an innocent one. I left school almost 51 years ago. There were no restrictions then, whatsoever. In what ways have circumstances changed, in your opinion?

 

I don’t have stats to hand. I was going on anecdotal reports. Chicago is voted as a prime example.

 

Comparisons with other countries merely underline the fact that gun ownership is not part of history and culture in most of the western world.

[Andyregs]

My question was an innocent one. I left school almost 51 years ago. There were no restrictions then, whatsoever. In what ways have circumstances changed, in your opinion?

 

I don’t have stats to hand. I was going on anecdotal reports. Chicago is voted as a prime example.

 

Comparisons with other countries merely underline the fact that gun ownership is not part of history and culture in most of the western world.

 

You can’t just walk into a school, and there are lots of child protection measures, but they are schools. Unless you lock students in for the whole day, then someone who wants to get in could.

I know you were going to say Chicago because it’s to go to state for those arguing against gun laws, probably down to believing things that trump says, as he used that line himself. I don’t think Chicago has the strictest gun laws, I may be wrong, but it seems a lot of them were stripped back 8-10 years ago. And it never has the strictest gun laws in America anyway. It’s an argument that has been largely debunked.

I read an interesting article where it shows that violent/gun deaths are massively higher in the USA than other western countries. However, violent crime isn’t. So whatever is driving Americans to partake in violent crime isn’t any different than elsewhere, and is in fact lower than others. However, when it happens, people are more likely to die. It was only one article, but if true you have to ask why?

[Tone]

You can’t just walk into a school, and there are lots of child protection measures, but they are schools. Unless you lock students in for the whole day, then someone who wants to get in could.

I know you were going to say Chicago because it’s to go to state for those arguing against gun laws, probably down to believing things that trump says, as he used that line himself. I don’t think Chicago has the strictest gun laws, I may be wrong, but it seems a lot of them were stripped back 8-10 years ago. And it never has the strictest gun laws in America anyway. It’s an argument that has been largely debunked.

I read an interesting article where it shows that violent/gun deaths are massively higher in the USA than other western countries. However, violent crime isn’t. So whatever is driving Americans to partake in violent crime isn’t any different than elsewhere, and is in fact lower than others. However, when it happens, people are more likely to die. It was only one article, but if true you have to ask why?

 

I’ll answer my own question, if I may. In 50 plus years the world as a whole has become more dangerous. There is more and more evidence of evil (call it what you wish). My own sister was attacked the other evening, in her own home in Newcastle, by someone firing a large rock (probably with a catapult) at their recently installed patio window. According to the glass repair guy, it’s a common occurrence.

 

I don’t claim to have detailed knowledge of the statistics. Chicago is definitely a city with some really dangerous areas. As to their gun laws, the perpetrators of crimes could care less about them. Just like our immigration laws.

 

I reiterate, we have to do a better job of protecting our children, as far as we possibly can.

[Andyregs]

I’ll answer my own question, if I may. In 50 plus years the world as a whole has become more dangerous. There is more and more evidence of evil (call it what you wish). My own sister was attacked the other evening, in her own home in Newcastle, by someone firing a large rock (probably with a catapult) at their recently installed patio window. According to the glass repair guy, it’s a common occurrence.

 

I don’t claim to have detailed knowledge of the statistics. Chicago is definitely a city with some really dangerous areas. As to their gun laws, the perpetrators of crimes could care less about them. Just like our immigration laws.

 

I reiterate, we have to do a better job of protecting our children, as far as we possibly can.

 

Again I’ll disagree. The world isn’t more dangerous. It’s just a tendency for people to look back at a non existent golden age. Were there less murders, assaults, sex attacks, deaths in combat etc 50 years ago? Studies show all of the ways of measuring danger have decreased, and life expectancy has also increased. I’d argue that 50 years ago, you just wouldn’t have heard about it as much. However, it doesn’t mean things are perfect and we can’t do better. I just think the gun lobby in the US seems to be fighting against this trend for some reason. And things could be even better.

But I’m happy that your sisters worries are about rocks and not bullets, as horrible as that it. And yes perpetrators of crimes may well not care about laws, but if a kid gets bullied in the uk, he hasn’t got access to grandads arsenal of assault weapons at hand. So I agree that the USA should be protecting its children. However the NRA and republicans are actively fighting against that. You protect children by removing the danger. The danger is guns. We realise that drunk driving causes deaths, so we make it illegal, car deaths are an issue so we legislate seat belts, lead in paint kills so we ban it, smoking kills so we put in measure to reduce the amount of people smoking, kids can be in danger due to their circumstance so we bring in child protection laws. Kids are being shot in schools.....no, can’t think of anything we can do, it’s such a complicated issue....let’s do nothing.

[Tone]

Again I’ll disagree. The world isn’t more dangerous. It’s just a tendency for people to look back at a non existent golden age. Were there less murders, assaults, sex attacks, deaths in combat etc 50 years ago? Studies show all of the ways of measuring danger have decreased, and life expectancy has also increased. I’d argue that 50 years ago, you just wouldn’t have heard about it as much. However, it doesn’t mean things are perfect and we can’t do better. I just think the gun lobby in the US seems to be fling against this trend for some reason. And things could be even better.

But I’m happy that your sisters worries are about rocks and not bullets, as horrible as that it. And yes perpetrators of crimes may well not care about laws, but if a kid gets bullied in the uk, he hasn’t got access to grandads arsenal of assault weapons at hand.

 

Your opinion is a subjective one, and that’s fine. So why are security measures so much more restrictive?

 

Crime rates in the UK increased tenfold in the past 40 years between 1950 and 1990. Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime-rate-shows-tenfold-increase-in-past-40-years-1472261.html

 

Since the numbers of police has fallen since the 90s, one could imagine that less crimes are now being recorded. I don’t know.

 

I would not argue that the number of deaths as a result of guns, involving innocent people, is alarming. I still believe we have to address the root causes, here as well as in the UK.

[Andyregs]

Your opinion is a subjective one, and that’s fine. So why are security measures so much more restrictive?

 

Crime rates in the UK increased tenfold in the past 40 years between 1950 and 1990. Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime-rate-shows-tenfold-increase-in-past-40-years-1472261.html

 

Since the numbers of police has fallen since the 90s, one could imagine that less crimes are now being recorded. I don’t know.

 

I would not argue that the number of deaths as a result of guns, involving innocent people, is alarming. I still believe we have to address the root causes, here as well as in the UK.

 

That was an increase in recorded crime. They article mentions that it’s recorded crime and in the next sentence says that policing has doubled over that time. Seemingly questioning the impact but ignoring that doubling the police will probably mean the amount of crime that’s recorded will go up. And stats go up and down with greater trends.

http:// http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html

 

Security measure are more restrictive because that’s one of the reasons we are safer now than in the past.

[Jacko51]

 

I reiterate, we have to do a better job of protecting our children, as far as we possibly can.

 

In the UK, Tone, we do a pretty good job of protecting our children. Since Dunblane in 1996 there haven't been any incidents in schools involving multiple deaths. There have, I believe, been 22 already in the USA this year. Surely the best way to protect children, and everyone else for that matter, is to control the proliferation of guns in the USA. Those across the pond who refuse to see the link between gun ownership and these events are, in my honest opinion, absolutely barking mad.

[Tone]

In the UK, Tone, we do a pretty good job of protecting our children. Since Dunblane in 1996 there haven't been any incidents in schools involving multiple deaths. There have, I believe, been 22 already in the USA this year. Surely the best way to protect children, and everyone else for that matter, is to control the proliferation of guns in the USA. Those across the pond who refuse to see the link between gun ownership and these events are, in my honest opinion, absolutely barking mad.

 

I’ve no doubt about that, Jean. That wasn’t what I was getting at. You are right. But my question was concerning the level of security required today, to keep children safe, compared to when you and I were at school.