Mass school shooting in US again

[Tone]

That wasn’t my suggestion, it’s yours. You say it isn’t but then each time refuse to say exactly what you do mean. Pretty much all your responses have been vague and avoiding the main arguments. Your main point has pretty much been that we shouldn’t ban guns because everyone should love each other, and I have a chef knife.

 

No, that was your misinterpretation of what I said. So finally, you summarise our entire discussion with another misinterpretation. That is what you WANT me to say.

 

This entire debate between us is why it no longer seems to be possible to have a simple discussion these days.

[Fosse69]

I can understand the need for shotguns and hunting rifles, more so in areas with dangerous animals. Also the need for hand guns in remote areas in a sparsely populated country. But the routine possession of assault weapons is ridiculous, unless a country is on a war footing and likely to be invaded. Are the stats in the USA distorted by a relative small number of people owning large numbers of weapons, whereas large numbers have no weapons at all?

[Trampilot]

Firstly, I declare my interest as a shooter. Certainly not a redneck variety either!

 

I cannot fathom the NRA/Republican position. I know in their blinkered way they want to keep this "right" but a "right" to what. I don't mind having laws which stop lunatics, idiots and criminals from legally obtaining guns. Why on earth wouldn't you want this?

 

The NRA might actually gain more power and respect by setting up its own vetting system. Yep that's a long job, but small steps etc... Perhaps include a coached range day before you're allowed near a gunshop. And if "self defence" is your reason to own one then a range day should be mandatory. If you wanted to race cars you wouldn't keep a F1 in your garage on the off chance of having race. You'd practice to make sure you were at least safe with it. Wouldn't you?

 

Anyway some points of information - I may have mentioned this on similar threads:

 

Dunblane:

 

Dunblane cannot be compared like-for-like with regards school shootings. US school shootings are perpetrated by ex-pupils or current pupils who feel wronged in some way.

Thomas Hamilton was a paedophile and mentally unstable. The laws in place at the time should have stopped him from obtaining ANY firearms but he lobbied a variety of powerful people who pressured the home office into approving his permission. You now have to think who he lobbied and what information did he hold against them. He knew Jimmy Savile - I'll let you ponder the rest.

 

Since the UK banned a variety of different guns armed crime has increased. The ban removed guns from legitimate users but not criminals. Did it stop future massacres? We'll never know, but it did nothing for the crime rate. I do admit its easier to stop someone with a machete than it is with a semi-automatic rifle!

 

Back on topic...

 

Why do school shootings keep happening? The rise of social media and social unrest cannot be ignored. I never had the internet until I was in my 20s so I've no idea of the pressures exerted on a young person in this way.

 

Often the polemic on this channel is one extreme or another. You are either for or against. Meat eater or vegan. Nazi or Snowflake. Might not be to blame 100% but it can't help someone who is feeling isolated and unable to identify and interact with society. The gun is the exclamation mark for the action not the reason. Banning the object just moves the problem. It doesn't solve it - if all these school shootings were cars driving into crowds of people, would you be saying ban cars?

 

Obviously not giving them such easy access to the "tool of the trade" has to be a must. I'm just saying don't just stop at looking at the gun legislation and think this will solve EVERYTHING. There is a lot more going on here and perhaps the solution isn't just restricting access to an object.

[Fosse69]

The motive is the cause whether the weapon be an assault rifle, pen knife or bare hands. Limiting access to weapons reduces the numbers of deaths, but will never eliminate random killings. The motives are many unfortunately.

[Andyregs]

No, that was your misinterpretation of what I said. So finally, you summarise our entire discussion with another misinterpretation. That is what you WANT me to say.

 

This entire debate between us is why it no longer seems to be possible to have a simple discussion these days.

 

Jesus wept, if I misinterpreted what you say, then clarify what you mean. You keep responding but choosing not to and continuing to be vague, so one can only come to their own conclusion why.

[Andyregs]

That is a load of balls everyone should love each other what crap everyone is different genes personality outlook thinking social standing homo hetero those who don't know political outlook religious persuasion country of birth ability temperament iq height weight colour and ten thousand other differences and you'll still be going on about this atrocity when the next one happens.

 

Ive got no idea what point you are making or what it has to do with my response to tone.

[Andyregs]

Firstly, I declare my interest as a shooter. Certainly not a redneck variety either!

 

I cannot fathom the NRA/Republican position. I know in their blinkered way they want to keep this "right" but a "right" to what. I don't mind having laws which stop lunatics, idiots and criminals from legally obtaining guns. Why on earth wouldn't you want this?

 

The NRA might actually gain more power and respect by setting up its own vetting system. Yep that's a long job, but small steps etc... Perhaps include a coached range day before you're allowed near a gunshop. And if "self defence" is your reason to own one then a range day should be mandatory. If you wanted to race cars you wouldn't keep a F1 in your garage on the off chance of having race. You'd practice to make sure you were at least safe with it. Wouldn't you?

 

Anyway some points of information - I may have mentioned this on similar threads:

 

Dunblane:

 

Dunblane cannot be compared like-for-like with regards school shootings. US school shootings are perpetrated by ex-pupils or current pupils who feel wronged in some way.

Thomas Hamilton was a paedophile and mentally unstable. The laws in place at the time should have stopped him from obtaining ANY firearms but he lobbied a variety of powerful people who pressured the home office into approving his permission. You now have to think who he lobbied and what information did he hold against them. He knew Jimmy Savile - I'll let you ponder the rest.

 

Since the UK banned a variety of different guns armed crime has increased. The ban removed guns from legitimate users but not criminals. Did it stop future massacres? We'll never know, but it did nothing for the crime rate. I do admit its easier to stop someone with a machete than it is with a semi-automatic rifle!

 

Back on topic...

 

Why do school shootings keep happening? The rise of social media and social unrest cannot be ignored. I never had the internet until I was in my 20s so I've no idea of the pressures exerted on a young person in this way.

 

Often the polemic on this channel is one extreme or another. You are either for or against. Meat eater or vegan. Nazi or Snowflake. Might not be to blame 100% but it can't help someone who is feeling isolated and unable to identify and interact with society. The gun is the exclamation mark for the action not the reason. Banning the object just moves the problem. It doesn't solve it - if all these school shootings were cars driving into crowds of people, would you be saying ban cars?

 

Obviously not giving them such easy access to the "tool of the trade" has to be a must. I'm just saying don't just stop at looking at the gun legislation and think this will solve EVERYTHING. There is a lot more going on here and perhaps the solution isn't just restricting access to an object.

 

Lost me with the car argument. Guns are designed to kill as efficiently as possible, cars are designed to try and limit accidents. Massive difference. How that isn’t blatantly obvious I’ll never know.

The U.K. gun crime stats are a bit skewed because they include air rifles and pallet guns. However I’m sure I read somewhere that gun deaths in the year after dunblane was about 60 per year and recent stats were about half. Maybe it’s gone up again, but it definitely went down. And despite shootings (by people who weren’t previously criminals) in America becoming more of an issue, we have had none.

But I do agree with looking at the bigger picture. That’s only sensible. No one is suggesting that restricting guns will solve everything. Just that resisting gun law change and using this as an excuse is madness.

[Warren]

Lost me with the car argument. Guns are designed to kill as efficiently as possible, cars are designed to try and limit accidents. Massive difference. How that isn’t blatantly obvious I’ll never know.

The U.K. gun crime stats are a bit skewed because they include air rifles and pallet guns. However I’m sure I read somewhere that gun deaths in the year after dunblane was about 60 per year and recent stats were about half. Maybe it’s gone up again, but it definitely went down. And despite shootings (by people who weren’t previously criminals) in America becoming more of an issue, we have had none.

But I do agree with looking at the bigger picture. That’s only sensible. No one is suggesting that restricting guns will solve everything. Just that resisting gun law change and using this as an excuse is madness.

 

Well here is my son's observations as a newly qualified doctor doing elective training in Toronto on the surgery and emergency teams. Involved with 4 gunshot victims in the last 2 weeks. Unless it hits an extremity it's usually going to be fatal he says. For knives and stabbing, still bad, but better chance of surviving.

[SuperValiant1876]

Well here is my son's observations as a newly qualified doctor doing elective training in Toronto on the surgery and emergency teams. Involved with 4 gunshot victims in the last 2 weeks. Unless it hits an extremity it's usually going to be fatal he says. For knives and stabbing, still bad, but better chance of surviving.

 

So inexperienced, in a different country and giving you false facts about survival rates. Also stating the obvious about guns and knives. Did I miss the point?

[Warren]

So inexperienced, in a different country and giving you false facts about survival rates. Also stating the obvious about guns and knives. Did I miss the point?

 

Also a qualified radiographer and has worked round the world in that profession as well. I think when you work in trauma, as opposed to you who gobs off about it, you may have a real life perspective on most types of injuries.

[SuperValiant1876]

Also a qualified radiographer and has worked round the world in that profession as well. I think when you work in trauma, as opposed to you who gobs off about it, you may have a real life perspective on most types of injuries.

 

I didn't realise you worked in trauma. I did however forget you know everything about everything though. At least you aren't pushing your Buddhism on us any more so that's something.

[Trampilot]

Lost me with the car argument. Guns are designed to kill as efficiently as possible, cars are designed to try and limit accidents. Massive difference. How that isn’t blatantly obvious I’ll never know.

The U.K. gun crime stats are a bit skewed because they include air rifles and pallet guns. However I’m sure I read somewhere that gun deaths in the year after dunblane was about 60 per year and recent stats were about half. Maybe it’s gone up again, but it definitely went down. And despite shootings (by people who weren’t previously criminals) in America becoming more of an issue, we have had none.

But I do agree with looking at the bigger picture. That’s only sensible. No one is suggesting that restricting guns will solve everything. Just that resisting gun law change and using this as an excuse is madness.

 

To reiterate I am in favour of SENSIBLE gun control and gun education. The NRA are fools if they don't see they need to change. I know a gun is designed to kill. - be it a paper target, clay pigeon, metal plate or a deer. I know I cannot unpull the trigger. Every range puts safety as no1 priority. Shooting as a sport is one of the safest you can be apart of, as a competitor or spectator.

 

The car analagy is a bit clunky but the point being made was that you cannot focus solely on the tool. In effect we are in agreement - a car isn't designed to kill but can be used as a weapon. The problem is in society, not in an object that does not harm anyone without a user.

 

As with these things the crying out for further legislation from the media, politicians and families (understandably) do give the impression it will solve the problem. Sadly it won't and always pushes the root cause further away. There needs to be a cohesive solution not just a block of laws.

 

Mass shootings by "non - criminals" are rare in the UK. They always have been - possibly due to our national sensibilities. They are so rare that we have only had Hungerford. Again I don't count Dunblane in the same breath - it should never have happened and the police and government are culpable. They know it too - the files have a 99 year moratorium. But two incidents since WW2 doesn't show a trend that makes me think the laws have prevented this from happening when it wasn't a likely incident in the first place. Obviously it's impossible to know - perhaps the laws would have been needed eventually - who knows?

 

Thanks Andy for the reasonable response too.

[bookworm]

Ive got no idea what point you are making or what it has to do with my response to tone.

 

it's not a point it's a statement of fact.

[Warren]

I didn't realise you worked in trauma. I did however forget you know everything about everything though. At least you aren't pushing your Buddhism on us any more so that's something.

 

My son is a qualified radiographer and doctor. Hence he has many years experience in trauma. I am highly qualified and experienced in several fields, including risk management and root cause analysis. So between us I think we have got the relative inherent risks from knives and guns right.