Safe standing

[elav trop 1876]

What point of my post is not true ?

 

I realise that “incidents” happened before Hillsborough, but I only mention this one as for the vast majority of readers to this forum, the terrible scenes that occurred 29 years ago today will be the only one they will know.

 

However, as I stated decades passed between the incidents you mention, but that does not mean that a catastrophe could not occur.

 

This was my point about “safe standing”. Just because nothing has happened to date, does not mean that it couldn’t.

 

As far as I am aware, and no doubt you will correct me if I’m wrong, but no loss of life has occurred in seating area’s due to overcrowding or otherwise.

 

And before someone quotes Valley Parade at me, that was due to chained gates so exit was not possible.

 

I hope I make myself clear.

 

Totally agree RR

 

strange how other sports don't have this issue whether seating or standing and this is the why it needs all parties to discuss a detailed way forward if different than we currently have..

 

at crewe it was all ticket yet sit where you want , we sold all our allocation yet there were seats free at one end yet overcrowding at the other-this has nothing to do with sitting or standing merely how the venue is handled so does this mean safe standing means it is ok to encourage this way or would it be best to get the base right by sorting the policing,stewarding ,, dont know why people cant see or understand this etc..the horse has to be before the cart

[RailwayRowdy]

Things are made safe by eliminating the dangers, the dangers with terracing are over crowding and surges down a slope. Standing will come back by public demand now it is safe to do so in the top leagues.

 

The only people demanding standing are those who are lucky enough to have not witnessed those horrendous scenes of 29 years ago today.

 

I appreciate other people’s views, but mine will not change on this.

 

Standing is a thing of the past and best left there.

[Andyregs]

The term “safe standing” for me is an issue in itself. Who has deemed it “safe” ? Everything is regarded as “safe” until the 50 year wave effect comes along and we have a major incident.

 

Without deliberately trying to cause an issue with so called “safe standing” to see how it behaves, I fail to see how anyone can say this system is “safe”. “safer” possibly, but certainly not safe.

 

Supporters of this system will no doubt say that it has been used abroad and there have been no incidents, thus providing proof it works.

 

My response would be that terrace standing as we knew it in this country happened for decades without incident. Then we had Hillsborough. I understand some supporters desire to stand, but the tail cannot be allowed to wag the dog.

 

Unless you stay indoors cushioned by cotton wool, then every time you go out has the potential for danger, you just expect that everything reasonable is done to avoid it. I stand at music concerts that are far more dangerous than those seats at Celtic for example. Do we make music venues all seater? And all the potential dangers will be looked at and modelled using computer simulations in a way that was never available before. It’s not as though they will put it in and wait to see what could go wrong. They will model every conceivable danger. To the extent that driving to the ground is far more dangerous than standing on the terrace. If that isn’t good enough then there is probably no safety checks that you might find acceptable and therefore any change from now is impossible.

[Fosse69]

The only people demanding standing are those who are lucky enough to have not witnessed those horrendous scenes of 29 years ago today.

 

I appreciate other people’s views, but mine will not change on this.

 

Standing is a thing of the past and best left there.

But seating areas are not enforced, only by stopping games until everyone sits down can it be done. People want to stand safely.

[elav trop 1876]

Railway R makes very good points,

 

If you have safestanding the same problems will exist , more people congregating in one area , if split end with seats people will do as now so i'm not sure of the total benefits other than to encourage more people into a confined standing area(as this will not be policed rules enforced as they cant do it with seats currently)

 

it needs root and branch understanding and discussion not just lets do this n that...attitudes have to change especially from the police,stewards and match day controllers who seem to think all fans are cattle to be herded +fans/supporter clubs have to play their part

[Fosse69]

Totally agree RR

 

strange how other sports don't have this issue whether seating or standing and this is the why it needs all parties to discuss a detailed way forward if different than we currently have..

 

at crewe it was all ticket yet sit where you want , we sold all our allocation yet there were seats free at one end yet overcrowding at the other-this has nothing to do with sitting or standing merely how the venue is handled so does this mean safe standing means it is ok to encourage this way or would it be best to get the base right by sorting the policing,stewarding ,, dont know why people cant see or understand this etc..the horse has to be before the cart

Crowd management issue as with Hillsborough, Crewe should be brought to task, common to all types of seating, and terracing in the lower leagues.

[elav trop 1876]

Unless you stay indoors cushioned by cotton wool, then every time you go out has the potential for danger, you just expect that everything reasonable is done to avoid it. I stand at music concerts that are far more dangerous than those seats at Celtic for example. Do we make music venues all seater? And all the potential dangers will be looked at and modelled using computer simulations in a way that was never available before. It’s not as though they will put it in and wait to see what could go wrong. They will model every conceivable danger. To the extent that driving to the ground is far more dangerous than standing on the terrace. If that isn’t good enough then there is probably no safety checks that you might find acceptable and therefore any change from now is impossible.

 

True there is always an element of risk in anything but you are saying music venues are safer than current football stadia because of the seats but wont be once so called safe standing is installed..

Not a music festival goer but how do rival fans of bands get segregated before during and after and how are they policed and stewarded and the general venue handled

[elav trop 1876]

Crowd management issue as with Hillsborough, Crewe should be brought to task, common to all types of seating, and terracing in the lower leagues.

 

precisely crewe should be bought to task and this was only a few weeks ago not 1989,burton a few yrs back,so much more work to be done-not against safer standing as such but really does need a lot more work 1-before it will happen 2-before it can happen

[elav trop 1876]

Quite clear. Do you think the seated area at Crewe was safe?

 

I just don’t understand why it’s safe to stand in the Scottish Prem but not the English. Makes no sense to me.

 

jacko would you use the crewe stand if safestanding was installed either partially or completely rather than going in the home end

 

do you think the idea of making it sit anywhere u want even though all ticket sold out was a good one and helped

 

do you think the police trying to squeeze up the stairs to get to the back of the stand would change from so called safeseating,especially when there is only one exit for the whole end

[JohnJames]

Let’s face it. At grounds like Vale with enormous capacities you would have to organise a crush on the terraces even with 17-18000 people.

Hillsboro happened because of Fences and Thatcher treating the average football fan as scum

 

With modern ticketing using bar codes you would never get into the same situation.

[Jacko51]

The only people demanding standing are those who are lucky enough to have not witnessed those horrendous scenes of 29 years ago today.

 

I witnessed the events at Hillsborough on TV and will say as I’ve said many times before, that was not a result of standing. There was a much bigger number of Forest fans standing at the kop end that day with no problem. It was caused by fences and incompetent policing. It was caused by a dilapidated ground with a ludicrous lack of signage. It was caused by ridiculous crowd management in the streets around the ground. It was caused by a bloke in charge who had no experience in the role he was asked to perform. But take the fences away and the chances are, no one dies.

 

I also get sick to death of people standing up in seating areas and obstructing my view. I am a little over five feet tall and have difficulty seeing a game when folk just stand up. If we can find a solution to the problem of standing in seated areas, fine, but it has been going on for years and is actually getting worse.

 

Standing is a thing of the past and best left there.

.

 

So why is it allowed in Scotland? Why is it allowed at numerous lower division grounds? Why is it allowed on the Continent? I just don’t get it.

[Fosse69]

Let’s face it. At grounds like Vale with enormous capacities you would have to organise a crush on the terraces even with 17-18000 people.

Hillsboro happened because of Fences and Thatcher treating the average football fan as scum

 

With modern ticketing using bar codes you would never get into the same situation.

Hillsborough happened due to criminal mismanagement. I have seen a surge ripple along the Railway Paddock, luckily sideways on the same level not down a slope, in the standing days against Liverpool. No tickets issued as it was a mid week game after a drawn cup-tie, could not happen nowadays, lessons learnt.

[Jacko51]

jacko would you use the crewe stand if safestanding was installed either partially or completely rather than going in the home end

 

do you think the idea of making it sit anywhere u want even though all ticket sold out was a good one and helped

 

do you think the police trying to squeeze up the stairs to get to the back of the stand would change from so called safeseating,especially when there is only one exit for the whole end

 

I wouldn’t go in that Crewe stand if you paid me. It’s unsafe because of the ludicrous access arrangements. The situation the other week was made far worse by the ridiculous decision to tell folk to sit anywhere. By doing that they actually breached the ground regulations and Crewe should be made accountable for that.

[RailwayRowdy]

I witnessed the events at Hillsborough on TV and will say as I’ve said many times before, that was not a result of standing. There was a much bigger number of Forest fans standing at the kop end that day with no problem. It was caused by fences and incompetent policing. It was caused by a dilapidated ground with a ludicrous lack of signage. It was caused by ridiculous crowd management in the streets around the ground. It was caused by a bloke in charge who had no experience in the role he was asked to perform. But take the fences away and the chances are, no one dies.

 

I also get sick to death of people standing up in seating areas and obstructing my view. I am a little over five feet tall and have difficulty seeing a game when folk just stand up. If we can find a solution to the problem of standing in seated areas, fine, but it has been going on for years and is actually getting worse.

 

.

 

So why is it allowed in Scotland? Why is it allowed at numerous lower division grounds? Why is it allowed on the Continent? I just don’t get it.

 

Now we are getting nearer to the root of the problem.

 

Supporters just will not obey rules where standing in seated area’s are concerned. I’m with you 100% on that.

 

I gave up on this many years ago and ALWAYS go in the home section at away games, usually with the equally old home duffers on the sides of the ground where this behaviour does not occur.

 

People are quick to criticise the stewarding, and sometimes with justification, but If supporters did what they are supposed to there would be few problems.

[elav trop 1876]

I wouldn’t go in that Crewe stand if you paid me. It’s unsafe because of the ludicrous access arrangements. The situation the other week was made far worse by the ridiculous decision to tell folk to sit anywhere. By doing that they actually breached the ground regulations and Crewe should be made accountable for that.

 

Fully agree and understand, this is why in my opinion more work needs to be done..also think all the authorities/establishment have been through in cover ups and getting found out and dragging out the last 29yrs (thoughts with all on the anniversary) they will make it a long rd to sign off anything