Brexit again...

[Hagrid]

Taking away the principle of whether Brexit is right or wrong, does anyone on here think that the negotiatins and the process of leaving is going well?

 

Do people honestly see it that, whatever the price, whatever the damage, we have to get on with it and leave? Or are there certain parameters (unemployment, growth, recessions etc) which would make you stand up and say "fair enough, its not going to work".

 

Is this an idealistic race to the end, regardless of what shape we are when we get there, or are there emergency brakes you're willing to apply?

 

Genuinely interested. Its clearly not going particularly well (for loads of reasons).

[Valiant62]

I think “the parameters” are impossible to predict or to believe either side’s objectivity in predicting. Personally, I doubt armageddon and I’m ambivalent about the EU in any event. Brexit is as much an opportunity as a threat though I don’t really trust the current crop of politicians to bring us to a sustainable future anyway. There are much more important things we need to tackle in or out of the EU.

[philpvfc]

It’s not going well if you’re a remainer or want another referendum because for all their shouting and crying Brexit is still going ahead.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

The current situation of chaos and uncertainty was guaranteed by the utterly stupid manner in which the referendum was held. A simple question of stay or leave, no detail or structure attached and a first past the post decision, one vote more for one side over the other carried the day; mindbogglingly stupid irrelevant of which side of the debate you're on.

Cameron was so arrogant he never even considered a result to leave. Staying in didn't need any detail or consequences attaching to it as it just meant carrying on as before, however, leaving has massive consequences and can take a whole host of forms as we're now seeing a bun fight over. Leave voters are not united in what they want but how could they be? There was nothing asking do you want to leave and just tell the EU to f off with no agreements on anything or do you want to leave but seek a post EU relationship like that of Norway, or anything inbetween. Politically insane and incompetence to a level that beggars belief.

Thus we are stuck in a mess and what makes it worse is the serially incompetent Tories are fighting a civil war over it, effectively fiddling while Rome burns. This period in our history will go down as a disaster, whatever the long term outcome. There's a lot of pain coming and wherever Brexit takes us it won't be pleasant getting there.

[bookworm]

It’s not going well if you’re a remainer or want another referendum because for all their shouting and crying Brexit is still going ahead.

 

yes and there will be wailing when the pro European mp's are deselected some have already been warned of the consequences of continually voting against their own party,self look after thyself sayeth him/her/it myself doesn't work when it goes against their constituants wishes.

[philpvfc]

SOT pretty well summed up what I said well.

[geosname]

Taking away the principle of whether Brexit is right or wrong, does anyone on here think that the negotiatins and the process of leaving is going well?

 

Do people honestly see it that, whatever the price, whatever the damage, we have to get on with it and leave? Or are there certain parameters (unemployment, growth, recessions etc) which would make you stand up and say "fair enough, its not going to work".

 

Is this an idealistic race to the end, regardless of what shape we are when we get there, or are there emergency brakes you're willing to apply?

 

Genuinely interested. Its clearly not going particularly well (for loads of reasons).

I think there isn't a choice that wouldn't cause as much damage as some think leaving will cause.

Like it or not it is the will of the people. They were asked to vote, to make a decision for the country as a whole... more than 50% voted to leave.... which political party would commit suicide by saying... tough we don't want to... that would be political dynamite and could achieve what guy falks failed to.

I have no love for lawyers but I was told never to ask a question (in a court setting) you don't know the answer to...

the mistake wasn't in the answer it was asking the question.

The choice is not with the politicians any longer, they made the fundamental mistake of asking the people they are supposed to represent and in doing so diminished there ability to make/change that decision.

Can you imagine any political party alienating 50% of the voting pool by making the decision and at the same time saying trust us.

[Thevalefan]

I'm not in any club either don't need to be and if some count like barnier was laying the law down he's get one in the mouth.

 

Hahaha who is this guy? That was so hard you've broke my phone screen 😂

 

Showing your intellect here, if you know what that means!

[Thevalefan]

Taking away the principle of whether Brexit is right or wrong, does anyone on here think that the negotiatins and the process of leaving is going well?

 

Do people honestly see it that, whatever the price, whatever the damage, we have to get on with it and leave? Or are there certain parameters (unemployment, growth, recessions etc) which would make you stand up and say "fair enough, its not going to work".

 

Is this an idealistic race to the end, regardless of what shape we are when we get there, or are there emergency brakes you're willing to apply?

 

Genuinely interested. Its clearly not going particularly well (for loads of reasons).

 

They are going terrible. The UK offered a referendum without even considering a Leave vote would happen. The UK at the time (and still is) was largely divided, the 'togetherness' or comradeship has disappeared and that's reflected in the inequalities visible across the country concerning many different social and economical aspects.

 

An anti-establishment vote was then placed, fueled (by both sides) by misinformation. Therefore, when we come to the negotiations we have ****** shouting "no Deal" and Remainers screeming stay in. Now even more divided.

 

Now the Govt recognises that the outcome of Brexit negotiations will largely dictate if the Torys will stay in power. Therefore, they are panicking.

 

The Torys never thought a Brexit would happen and subsequently made no plan. The referendum should have been presented to the public using the narrative of a plan drawn up prior by experts in different fields, then this option offered to people.

 

We have done everything backwards against a well organised union already prepared for a Brexit. Not only that, we had made massive commitments to the EU - some old, some new. If anyone picked a book up (and you can,very cheap) on economic law you would realise that the time period (or transition) is not enough. It took the EU 7 years (I think) to negotiate a trade deal with Canada (which we were part of, so we can trade with who we like in reality, no one has explained yet how the EU control who we do business with and BAe is a recent example to say your all talking rubbish spouting that line out!) - so unless we have a race to the bottom at the expense of British people then we will have very few deals in place when we leave. Less availability, higher price. Supply and demand. High availability, high barriers to entry, higher costs. It's simple. Remember, the world in general sees us as imperialists and we are putting ourselves up against the EU as our main competitor in economic terms. The EU as a collective group can offer businesses much better terms, conditions and a market almost 10 times as big as ours.

 

Wage growth is slow in the UK and in many European countries it is massively increasing. Personal national debts in the UK are higher than across europe. 15 million odd people don't even have £100 in the bank in th UK - favourable terms will no doubt be in the union instead of the UK. Unless of course business tax is reduced, regulations reduced even more, pensions contributions removed, no min wage etc happens. Otherwise, business who look for low cost will carry out going to third world countries. Business wanting educated individuals, high levels of infrastructure etc will go to developed countries offering the best deal and access to 500m people instead of 65m people is where the buck lies for capitalist corporations!

 

 

So that's what we are negotiating against, how can you negotiate against that?

 

But what I'd like to know is what have we actually negotiated so far? All EU nationals can stay here and even their families can come if they are quick! We will still have non EU migration driven by Sajid Javid so what has actually happened? All that has happened so far is inflation and the shops being slightly more expensive, while wages are saturated and in reality going down.

 

We haven't negotiated anything yet really. I still think the final deal should be voted on, dont you? I never voted conservative to begin with, so they don't represent my interests (and I personally belive they don't represent the interests of the majority) when it comes to a Brexit deal!

[Fosse69]

I think there isn't a choice that wouldn't cause as much damage as some think leaving will cause.

Like it or not it is the will of the people. They were asked to vote, to make a decision for the country as a whole... more than 50% voted to leave.... which political party would commit suicide by saying... tough we don't want to... that would be political dynamite and could achieve what guy falks failed to.

I have no love for lawyers but I was told never to ask a question (in a court setting) you don't know the answer to...

the mistake wasn't in the answer it was asking the question.

The choice is not with the politicians any longer, they made the fundamental mistake of asking the people they are supposed to represent and in doing so diminished there ability to make/change that decision.

Can you imagine any political party alienating 50% of the voting pool by making the decision and at the same time saying trust us.

The mistake was not telling the voters that it was an advisory referendum unlike the AV referendum which was mandatory. Mandatory fair enough when it is a binary choice, whereas with an advisory referendum it is up to parliament to assess the consequencies of a highly complicated situation and then act accordingly. Whereas what happened the PM resigned, May took over and told the country that it was the will of the people i.e. mandatory. Kept the planning to herself, but knew she needed a larger majority to bypass parliament. Didn't get it so had to bring ministers in, who have continued to squabble and fudge. So after 2 years not much progress. My faith in politicians fairly minimal, the ones that try to bypass parliament terrifying, just look at Trump.

[For Us All]

I think there isn't a choice that wouldn't cause as much damage as some think leaving will cause.

Like it or not it is the will of the people. They were asked to vote, to make a decision for the country as a whole... more than 50% voted to leave.... which political party would commit suicide by saying... tough we don't want to... that would be political dynamite and could achieve what guy falks failed to.

I have no love for lawyers but I was told never to ask a question (in a court setting) you don't know the answer to...

the mistake wasn't in the answer it was asking the question.

The choice is not with the politicians any longer, they made the fundamental mistake of asking the people they are supposed to represent and in doing so diminished there ability to make/change that decision.

Can you imagine any political party alienating 50% of the voting pool by making the decision and at the same time saying trust us.

 

The trouble is the Remainers claim to all be geniuses and are superior to the 52% who are all thick.

You are correct in thinking that this is a battle between the MP's and the people they supposed to represent.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

The mistake was not telling the voters that it was an advisory referendum unlike the AV referendum which was mandatory. Mandatory fair enough when it is a binary choice, whereas with an advisory referendum it is up to parliament to assess the consequencies of a highly complicated situation and then act accordingly. Whereas what happened the PM resigned, May took over and told the country that it was the will of the people i.e. mandatory. Kept the planning to herself, but knew she needed a larger majority to bypass parliament. Didn't get it so had to bring ministers in, who have continued to squabble and fudge. So after 2 years not much progress. My faith in politicians fairly minimal, the ones that try to bypass parliament terrifying, just look at Trump.

Excellent post. It's easy to lose sight of it's being an advisory vote.

The welfare of the nation is being sacrificed on the altar of politician's self interest.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

The trouble is the Remainers claim to all be geniuses and are superior to the 52% who are all thick.

You are correct in thinking that this is a battle between the MP's and the people they supposed to represent.

Well seeing as all the logical and statistical arguments are presented in support of the remain side and all the myth, conjecture and jingoism is presented in support of the leave side, plus research has demonstrated the more educated people were the more likely they voted remain, it's no surprise the remain supporters come across as 'geniuses'. They're not but somehow the leave brigade think Remainers can be discredited for having the temerity to be educated and the ability to argue against emotion with logic and fact. This is a classic tactic of undemocratic politics, utilised in its extreme by despotic regimes such as the Stalinist USSR, Nazi Germany and Khmer Rouge Cambodia; imprisonment and slaughter of intellectuals, book burning and discreditation of liberal open minded education as being a subversive and threatening thing.

The leave side aren't all thick in the same way remainers aren't all 'geniuses' but lots of them are doing a very good job of portraying the leave side as such.

[Regal Beagle]

Well seeing as all the logical and statistical arguments are presented in support of the remain side and all the myth, conjecture and jingoism is presented in support of the leave side, plus research has demonstrated the more educated people were the more likely they voted remain, it's no surprise the remain supporters come across as 'geniuses'. They're not but somehow the leave brigade think Remainers can be discredited for having the temerity to be educated and the ability to argue against emotion with logic and fact. This is a classic tactic of undemocratic politics, utilised in its extreme by despotic regimes such as the Stalinist USSR, Nazi Germany and Khmer Rouge Cambodia; imprisonment and slaughter of intellectuals, book burning and discreditation of liberal open minded education as being a subversive and threatening thing.

The leave side aren't all thick in the same way remainers aren't all 'geniuses' but lots of them are doing a very good job of portraying the leave side as such.

 

 

 

What an opening line that is! It's not true in the slightest though.

 

Trust me, remainers are not seen as geniuses, they are the ones using emotional, illogical arguments which is why, years down the line, you still can't talk about brexit without some sort of implication that the WINNING SIDE are racist, fascist, nazis, idiots, brainwashed etc etc.

 

Perhaps you could list some of your remain logic and stats as in 3-4 years prominent remain campaigners haven't managed it, it would be incredible if OVF was the place where it finally happened.

[For Us All]

It will be if we allow free movement.