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Brexit again...


Davebrad

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Just now, Nofinikea said:

The EU wants to unite Europe under a single control by holding elections in every members country to install MEPs who can vote on every single part of that "control".  Its a bit like saying football league clubs are controlled by the EFL even though they all vote on its rules...

NAZI GERMANY wanted to exert control by killing everyone who disagreed.

Yeh, the similarities are obvious arent they...

Ffs.

It depends how far you want to take the analogy...hitler wanted every European country subservient to his control... that's what the EU are heading towards.

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1 minute ago, Nofinikea said:

Hahahahahahaha...

Ok whatever,  that's a weak as cat piss geo and again highlights your innate desire just to find argument without actually having an opinion or point.  

Does the fact that it was a vote to join a common market still not prove my point that RB is talking <ovf censored> when he says we are TRADITIONALLY a eurosceptic nation?  Of course it does and you bloody well know it does but oh no, let's try and be a clever dick instead...

We voted on the common market entry...... great idea to unite different countries....... that's nothing like the EU as it is today.

The point you made for me is you don't know what you are arguing for...... the difference between the common market, which both Labour and Tory members voted against, is vastly different to what emerged after the Maastricht treaty.... and the direction the EU is heading..... 

I don't like where it's heading but I would still rather be in it than out.

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40 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

The EU wants to unite Europe under a single control by holding elections in every members country to install MEPs who can vote on every single part of that "control".  Its a bit like saying football league clubs are controlled by the EFL even though they all vote on its rules...

NAZI GERMANY wanted to exert control by killing everyone who disagreed.

Yeh, the similarities are obvious arent they...

Ffs.

You were the one who likened the UK to Nazi Germany.I think you need to read a few history books instead of guessing what went on.

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13 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Geo, you are skirting over the point about freely elected MEPs and that the EU isn't killing people against it.  But ok, whatever I suppose it means you can find an argument where there isnt one.

Also you ignore that the only point I am making regarding the 1975 referendum is that RBs claim that we are traditionally obviously a eurosceptic country.  If you think that vote back in 1975 does not show that we were not eurosceptic back then and in fact it's only the rise of right wing agendas since the 2007 recession and bank crash that has seen eurosceptics rise off the back of austerity and blaming the wrong people for the hardship,  I.e immigrants.

And Howjy, see above.  I am fine with my history.  Nazis rose due to Germany being in depression, people being desperate and somebody coming along and blaming it all on one thing that they could unite against.  They bought the utopian promise and ignored the uglier side of things.  Now modern day britain has seen the wealth gap extend, people are struggling day to day and xenophobes like Farage have given people something to blame.  In this case the EU, more specifically immigration.  They have then dressed it with economics and sovereignty and all other sorts of rhetoric but fundamentally the agenda of hard line brexiteers is immigration.  Britain for Brits, making Britain Great again blah blah...

No history lesson required pal, the rise of right wing politics has many parallels with 1930s Germany.  People who argue for a hard line brexit on economic grounds apart from it being untrue are blatantly ignoring the uglier truth behind a hard line Brexit agenda.

People who voted for Nazis because they were promised a better future didnt vote to kill Jews but they didnt vote to stop it either.

People pushing a hard line Brexit agenda are not necessarily racist but neither are they stopping racists from taking over.

Good people fought for unity and freedom.  We currently have the right to freely roam, work and play in 26 different countries without the need for checks and question.  How good is that?  26 countries and potentially more completely unified,  borderless and bumping along generally well, and then a few right wing idiots like Farage pop up and want to extract us from the most freedom we as EU nationals have ever had - it's an absolute disgrace and its sickening that people can twist and try to justify this for anything other than what it is.

I hate groups like BF, EDL and UKIP (political guise of BF).  I hate nationalism, its pathetic in a modern world.  Ingurland! <ovf censored> off you small minded morons, your days have gone.  We are European, we are free to go wherever we want in Europe and these millionaire right wing bigots come along, promise the impossible and folk lap it up...  even if I wanted to support no deal I would never allow myself to be aligned with racists and bigots.  If it's an option they all want then its inherently wrong.

A Hard No Deal Brexit takes away the freedom of movement for 500M people!

That's 1/2 billion people currently free to travel anywhere in the EU to work or play.  The only people who could possibly think thats a good idea are either xenophobic, racist or never travel beyond there local boozer.  

But they all come here to use our NHS and steal our jobs...  jog on you half wits.

I'm skirting nothing.

The referendum you refer to in 1975 was not to join the EU.  It was to join an economic community not a nation in the making. Vast difference.

Prominant politicians were against it then and now...... the people decided and we joined.....

The right wing and left wing both have agendas that have adverse consequences when you get out to the fringes...... if "normal people" decide to back a political point should they abandon their belief because either fringe attaches themselves to that particular point?

The far right side of the Tory party are as obnoxious and dangerous as the far left side of the Labour party, do you think the electorate should disassociate themselves from both parties because of the lunatic fringes of both parties.

Everyone likes the freedoms freedom of movement brings...... no one seems to want to pay the price..... immigrants bring the country money by working and paying taxes..... but as with citizens what they pay in does not cover the cost of them being here.

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I agree that the majority of the voters chose to join the EEC.... so rightly we did. 

I think as a nation we have probably been sceptical of Europe for many years but not necessarily of the EU.... that's where my definition of being eurosceptic and lbs differ.

I am English, I'm not British or European.  I am not from the UK or Europe.  If it's acceptable for a Scotsman to be from Scotland,  a Welsh man from Wales and an Irish man from Ireland why is it unacceptable for a man born in England to be English? It so happens that my country has a union with others, which I accept without problem, it also has a monarch that is also the monarch of the union countries. Europe is not a country, no matter how much it would like to be, it's a continent. Calling me a European is not dissimilar to calling a Russian an Asian or calling a Thai  Chinese, 

The EEC seemed to want to preserve the country status..... to me the EU does not.

I do not decry others their country, it's only a location after all. I am not a nationalist? in the sence that England is always correct or can do no wrong, I don't think England has an automatic right to do as it pleases to other countries simply because it's England.... if other members of the union wish to be independent they should be, provided it's the people who decide.

Your last point is debatable..... as an extreme example..... the population of the EU pales into comparison when compared to the population of China,  which in itself is only a percentage of Asia's total population, would a union with China be acceptable knowing we have to abide by it's laws and governance?..... I said it was extreme..... on the other hand if a large percentage of the 500 million EU citizens were living below a poverty line nominal in the uk where is the overall benefit to the UK?  Especially if their economies crash and the UK is forced to bail them out.

The prime objective of a UK parliament is to protect the UK and it's citizens..... that before anything else.

That being said I don't think it does anymore, no matter which party has a majority...... protect the party has replaced it..... although that is now shifting to identity politics

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2 hours ago, geosname said:

I'm skirting nothing.

The referendum you refer to in 1975 was not to join the EU.  It was to join an economic community not a nation in the making. Vast difference.

 

Wrong.  We were already in the economic community in 1975 and had been for two years.  The referendum was to find out if the electorate, having seen what being in the economic community meant, wanted to stay in or not.  It was not about joining.  Sadly, those voting in 2016 did not have the benefit of knowing what being out of the EU would be like.

On a philosphical level, if you look down at the earth from space, there are no borders in Europe, only man made lines on a map and a little bit of English Channel. 

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5 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Wrong.  We were already in the economic community in 1975 and had been for two years.  The referendum was to find out if the electorate, having seen what being in the economic community meant, wanted to stay in or not.  It was not about joining.  Sadly, those voting in 2016 did not have the benefit of knowing what being out of the EU would be like.

On a philosphical level, if you look down at the earth from space, there are no borders in Europe, only man made lines on a map and a little bit of English Channel. 

I stand corrected Jean..... I'm old and get confused.

As for boarders they should be on the map given the millions who died protecting them or trying to expand them...... philosophically speaking.

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4 minutes ago, geosname said:

As for boarders they should be on the map given the millions who died protecting them or trying to expand them...... philosophically speaking.

But that is my point - millions died protecting arbitary lines on a map.  It's madness when you think about it. 

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3 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

But that is my point - millions died protecting arbitary lines on a map.  It's madness when you think about it. 

All war is madness Jean.... a madness to start it and an enforced madness to defeat it.... it's evidence of human stupidity... and self protection to the point of self destruction. 

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2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Wrong.  We were already in the economic community in 1975 and had been for two years.  The referendum was to find out if the electorate, having seen what being in the economic community meant, wanted to stay in or not. 

That is a very good point. People say we had a referendum to join. There never was one. It was a "we're in, what you gonner do about it referendum". And that was before the single market and Maastricht and so on. Which no one had a say in other than politicos. 

I'm a remainer. I live in Europe. This could have very serious consequences for me an my family. But what I can not get my head around is referendum result deniers. I didn't like the outcome. But  this attitude that they were too thick, racist, didn't know what they were voting for patronising attitude is not on. I'm afraid you cannot portray 52% of the population  that way. 

My family were split 50/50 and half of them are Irish descent.  And none of them are racist xenophobes or idiots, They had their reasons.

So I don't like the result. My daughter was a vote counter and phoned me in the middle of the night in tears because she was so upset. But that is what is was. Sadly.

And that in my opinion has to be accepted. Out it has to be. And out means out. Not in out shake it all about. Sadly.

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I don't think I have ever seen anyone say that 52% of the population were too thick, racist, etc.  My niece, who is a legal executive, had concerns about the powers of the European Courts and voted to leave.  My brother voted to leave for perfectly sensible reasons.  My neighbour, one of the most intelligent blokes I know, voted to leave although his wife voted remain.

As has been said many times, however, not all leave voters were thick racists but all thick racists were leave voters!!

 

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16 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

I don't think I have ever seen anyone say that 52% of the population were too thick, racist, etc.  My niece, who is a legal executive, had concerns about the powers of the European Courts and voted to leave.  My brother voted to leave for perfectly sensible reasons.  My neighbour, one of the most intelligent blokes I know, voted to leave although his wife voted remain.

As has been said many times, however, not all leave voters were thick racists but all thick racists were leave voters!!

 

True Jean. But the end result is the same. And I know we both agree that the bloody stupid over simplistic referendum is the root cause of the current **** show. 

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