Brexit again...

[Jacko51]

Let's be honest about this - there are two reasons to leave the EU.  Those on the right want to avoid the sort of regulation that stops them making even more money.  Those on the left want to introduce more government control and subsidy of industry which the EU doesn't allow. 

All this crap about sovereignty is just that - crap.  Nobody cares about it if it means an economic downturn.  If your bills go up you won't be thinking, never mind, at least we've got our sovereignty, you'll just be bloody annoyed.

[Regal Beagle]

3 hours ago, TheSage said:

Wow. So what? Give me a few examples of when this has happened. I don't recall one, or at least anything significant. And as I said above give me a few more examples of where the EU has passed a law in the past few years that our PM has not agreed with. 

It's a superfluous and irrelevant. We've got laws on our statute book that say that you can't be drunk in charge of cattle but you do you think anyone is remotely bothered about it in practice? In theory it's the law but in practice....

 

What you are saying is dishonest or downright foolish beyond belief.

Sovereignty = The ultimate authority.

The EU can fine us if we dare to implement a British law that they don't like.

They are the ultimate authority, they are sovereign.

There is no ifs and buts.

"Give me examples..." is simply an attempt to move the goalposts when the game has already finished. You literally should not be able to argue with a cold hard fact.

If you want to acknowledge the fact and then tell me why it doesn't matter to you then that is absolutely fine, but to deny it is a fact shows such a willingness to deceive or a lack of understanding of the word sovereignty.

You have to start accepting the facts, this is getting ludicrous now.

[Regal Beagle]

2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Let's be honest about this - there are two reasons to leave the EU.  Those on the right want to avoid the sort of regulation that stops them making even more money.  Those on the left want to introduce more government control and subsidy of industry which the EU doesn't allow. 

All this crap about sovereignty is just that - crap.  Nobody cares about it if it means an economic downturn.  If your bills go up you won't be thinking, never mind, at least we've got our sovereignty, you'll just be bloody annoyed.

Simply not true?

The wealthy elite are remainers on the whole.

And when no one on the remain side of this forum has managed to even pretend to understand the sovereignty argument then I find it difficult to accept you writing it away in a sweeping unevidenced and frankly ridiculous sentance. "nobody cares about it if it means an economic downturn?" - I can show you 17m people who do care about it despite all the lies and doomsday economic "predictions".

 

 

[geosname]

7 hours ago, TheSage said:

You talked about the EU wanting to become a super state with its own army. I was saying that we can opt out and veto major decisions like that, as we have done when the EU has proposed things like driving on the right and having the Euro. They might want that (debatable) but it isn't going to happen.

Just as I might want a big car and a villa on the Riviera. There are legitimate reasons why it won't happen.

Probably not a good comparison. My apologies.

 

Oh I see.... we are coming from different angles mate.... your coming from the practicalities of today..... I'm coming from sometime tomorrow.... possibly where member states are so dependent on things like subsidies,  trade arrangements, economic pressures, bailouts etc they can't afford to say no..... a bit like brexit?

[geosname]

4 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Let's be honest about this - there are two reasons to leave the EU.  Those on the right want to avoid the sort of regulation that stops them making even more money.  Those on the left want to introduce more government control and subsidy of industry which the EU doesn't allow. 

All this crap about sovereignty is just that - crap.  Nobody cares about it if it means an economic downturn.  If your bills go up you won't be thinking, never mind, at least we've got our sovereignty, you'll just be bloody annoyed.

Let's be honest...... you are probably right.... I know my financial state has devalued by over 25% since the referendum... people should care about sovereignty, a few actually do, but bottom line is food on the table..... that will always be the bottom line.

[Paul6754]

3 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Sovereignty = The ultimate authority.

The UK has always had its own Sovereign powers even when in the EU, it chooses not to use them compare the UK to Hungary, Poland etc.

In the UK there is Parliamentary Sovereignty which means at any time the UK can revoke the Act of Parliament that gives EU Law it's force in the UK, granted the UK would be at odds with the EU if it did so but it has the option.

The argument about Sovereignty is weak, nebulous and a non-issue compared to the effect of Brexit on the UK economy which is already real and ongoing.

There is also the UN to consider when talking ultimate Sovereignty, eg the UK has recently signed up to the UN compact on global migration which makes immigration a human right.

[geosname]

I know nothing about the U.N...... does this agreement ratify the principal that people have the right to leave their own country but have no automatic right to enter the country of their choice?

As far as asylum seekers are concerned do they have to apply for asylum in the first country they reach?

Is "first country reached" defined as land reached or by out of international waters?

[For Us All]

5 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

The UK has always had its own Sovereign powers even when in the EU, it chooses not to use them compare the UK to Hungary, Poland etc.

In the UK there is Parliamentary Sovereignty which means at any time the UK can revoke the Act of Parliament that gives EU Law it's force in the UK, granted the UK would be at odds with the EU if it did so but it has the option.

The argument about Sovereignty is weak, nebulous and a non-issue compared to the effect of Brexit on the UK economy which is already real and ongoing.

There is also the UN to consider when talking ultimate Sovereignty, eg the UK has recently signed up to the UN compact on global migration which makes immigration a human right.

It may be a human right but it's not legally binding and allows countries to remain in charge of their own immigration policy.

 Hungary, Austria, Italy, Poland, Slovakia, Chile,Australia and the USA all refused to adopt the deal.

[ginge]

9 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Simply not true?

The wealthy elite are remainers on the whole.

And when no one on the remain side of this forum has managed to even pretend to understand the sovereignty argument then I find it difficult to accept you writing it away in a sweeping unevidenced and frankly ridiculous sentance. "nobody cares about it if it means an economic downturn?" - I can show you 17m people who do care about it despite all the lies and doomsday economic "predictions".

 

 

The Brexit vote was a predominantly middle class vote from tories in Hampshire. How can you say that remain are the elite?! Look at people supporting brexit... mogg, johnson, farage, tice, banks...these are the elite!

[Davebrad]

16 hours ago, tommytunstall said:

The EU agreed a withdrawal plan with the British PM, the fact that it was not acceptable to Parliament is not the fault of the EU. Now we have the Buffoon publicly blasting the EU and telling everyone what he intends to do, not the best sort of approach when supposedly trying to agree a deal with them.

agreed parliament did not accept the offer(or was it "take it or leave it"), and the eu have not budged since day one, their game plan was make it as hard as it can be so anyone who got the same idea would be put off... Also the eu pre-emptied Boris's election by saying whoever is the new prime minister we will not alter what is on the table...      parliament weakened our negotiations by voting the no deal out,  so logically if you've not got a no deal option, you have to accept the deal, good or bad and the eu's "offer" was and still is non-negotialble...

[Fosse69]

17 minutes ago, ginge said:

The Brexit vote was a predominantly middle class vote from tories in Hampshire. How can you say that remain are the elite?! Look at people supporting brexit... mogg, johnson, farage, tice, banks...these are the elite!

Nothing will change in the future either, most of the reduced spend will be spent in the South, what we have we keep policy. Forget Johnson bluster on Northern spend, he will forget it quicker.

[Fosse69]

8 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

agreed parliament did not accept the offer(or was it "take it or leave it"), and the eu have not budged since day one, their game plan was make it as hard as it can be so anyone who got the same idea would be put off... Also the eu pre-emptied Boris's election by saying whoever is the new prime minister we will not alter what is on the table...      parliament weakened our negotiations by voting the no deal out,  so logically if you've not got a no deal option, you have to accept the deal, good or bad and the eu's "offer" was and still is non-negotialble...

We can of course revoke, re-assess where we are in a few years and see if the will to leave is still there.

 

[TheSage]

There is an abstract, theoretical argument. EU law should take precedence over member states' laws if there is a disagreement. That is true. 

But in practice, in reality, it means little. You can't give me an example in the last few years when we've had a law of any importance foisted on us that our PM didn't want because there isn't one.

We have full control over 98% of all our revenue/expenditure. Around 13% only of our laws originate in the EU - laws that we agree with for 99% of the time and the few that we don't are so minor that it makes not a jot. Since 1973 we have only voted against 2% proposed EU laws, agreeing with 98%. Clearly a total disgrace.  Between 1996-2014, 4514 of our laws were linked to EU legislation, of which we voted against 72. 29,591 laws were our own laws, entirely produced in the UK.

You can't give key examples because of those 72 laws that we voted against most are too minor to mention or rather silly. I'll give you some examples if you want facts -

The EU wanted food labels to say if aspartine was present. We voted against because it was more red tape. (There is some evidence linking it to cancer). Another one? Trucks for transporting livestock over 8 hours must have bedding, water, food, and be available for inspection at all times. We disagreed. Honestly, most of these things have very little impact on the man in the street. 

Perception has become more important than reality. Sovereignty and "take back control" are things no-one can disagree with aren't they? We all want to control our destiny. But we already do! We can't get back what in practice we haven't really lost. 

Here's another fact for you and one I guess that many brexiteers have never seen before. It's from the government's white paper about leaving the EU.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/589191/The_United_Kingdoms_exit_from_and_partnership_with_the_EU_Web.pdf

It's a government document pushing to leave and telling us why and how it will be done, so in its own way its biased. But what does it sneak into parag. 2.1? These words; "Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that."

Still not convinced? The Royal Institute of International Affairs has pointed out that in the modern interdependent world in which we live it is far better to work together and collaborate. For example, pooling sovereignty on giving all EU countries free access to 500 million customers, helping to combat Iran, coordinating climate change measures. We couldn't do these things on our own. We are stronger and more influential together. The Institute concludes, "The notion of ‘absolute’ British sovereignty is illusory. It is also worthless if it limits the ability of future British governments to ensure the security and prosperity of their citizens."

 

[Fosse69]

The US has fewer regulations, but compare the death rates from food related sources if you ever have time. Trump Trade Deal Guardian 29 Jul Nick Dearden, comment by a Canadian reader. It is a comment not a Guardian statement.

[Davebrad]

1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

We can of course revoke, re-assess where we are in a few years and see if the will to leave is still there.

 

we could, but that could cause a voter reaction, ie Dominic Greive amongst others facing a deselection battle, and if going for another vote would people bother to go vote thinking whats the use, nothing was done before... also those who did not bother last time thinking the leavers could not win would be out in force this time, to get a remain result, then if it was a remain win, the leavers would campaign to get another vote etc etc etc. Much better to accept the original result as the result of the referendum question. This has already split the country and union possibly  beyond repair, why on earth  give it another go in a few years time?