Brexit again...

[ginge]

5 hours ago, geosname said:

When the results were declared the £ took a nose dive, mainly I think because the result shook confidence.

Since then, in my opinion, the decline is due to the inaction and inability of politicians to do anything constructive.

Brexit will be damaging, anyone with an iota of sense would agree. How damaging and for how long is anyone's guess/prediction/forecast..... I don't think it will be as devastating as some claim in the short term nor do I think we will float through it as others think..... long term I think it could be, possibly, beneficial if..... and it's a whopper..... politicians can do something instead of arguing about what they can't do.... I have very little faith in that happening.

In my opinion it was a bad decision to leave..... my greatest concern is the damage done and probable future damage to the trust and belief in the political system. Whichever way we go, in or out, half the people who voted will be dissafected and become vulnerable to the power grabbers, out to make a name and reputation on the back of the people.

We have had over three years of 600+ elected members sitting with their thumb up their ass picking their noses.... jaw jaw may be better than war war but an ounce of action is better than 3 years of lip flapping crap.

This mess was not created by the people who voted..... no matter which way they voted.

This issue doesn't question the competence of government it questions the incompetence of parliament.

Which politicians are to blame? And why?

Or are you just blaming all of them? Again why?

In a parliamentary democracy the referendum should never have gone ahead as it's shown it's impossible to deliver. I think the government have genuinely tried to get Brexit through but it hasn't happened. People say they should have negotiated tougher, but David Cameron couldn't get the reform he wanted, and one of us vs 27 countries-what do people expect? The deal is leaving the EU. Is it a bad deal? Well yes compared to what we currently have from remaining in the EU.

[geosname]

14 minutes ago, ginge said:

Which politicians are to blame? And why?

Or are you just blaming all of them? Again why?

In a parliamentary democracy the referendum should never have gone ahead as it's shown it's impossible to deliver. I think the government have genuinely tried to get Brexit through but it hasn't happened. People say they should have negotiated tougher, but David Cameron couldn't get the reform he wanted, and one of us vs 27 countries-what do people expect? The deal is leaving the EU. Is it a bad deal? Well yes compared to what we currently have from remaining in the EU.

All of them.

Because they are all to blame.

I don't expect the best bargaining tool to be hidden away or ignored before negotiations have ended and a deal is reached. I expect a "negotiating team" to actually negotiate not go cap in hand to find out what crumbs can be swept off the table in our direction. I expect politicians to do their job without fear or favour.

We don't have a deal we have an offer, it's not a deal until we agree to it. If may had thrown the towel in any harder it would have landed in China. To establish a legal deal/contract there has to be 3 elements, offer, acceptance and consideration (some form of payments not necessarily financial)..... we had an offer....  a crap offer which was rejected..... until we get a deal we won't know if it's better or worse.

600+ Mps voted on article 50, it passed with a large majority and built in a default position if no deal was agrèed, a no deal exit. In the 3 + years since politicians have argued about the default deal they voted for, they have voted on the offer several times, they have voted for what they think they want and what they thought they meant when setting the referendum questions.... and...... nothing.... were any of them free votes?.... were they expected to tow the party line?.... are they more concerned about what will happen at an election?.... are they prepared for the default position they voted for?..... yes I blame them all for the various inactions.

Voting leave was the wrong result, the wrong decision, a bloody terrible idea... but it happened... the financial impact will cause problems...... the political impact will be bigger and cause financial problems..... there is no wipe the slate clean, start from scratch as though nothing happened solution.

[ginge]

26 minutes ago, geosname said:

All of them.

Because they are all to blame.

I don't expect the best bargaining tool to be hidden away or ignored before negotiations have ended and a deal is reached. I expect a "negotiating team" to actually negotiate not go cap in hand to find out what crumbs can be swept off the table in our direction. I expect politicians to do their job without fear or favour.

We don't have a deal we have an offer, it's not a deal until we agree to it. If may had thrown the towel in any harder it would have landed in China. To establish a legal deal/contract there has to be 3 elements, offer, acceptance and consideration (some form of payments not necessarily financial)..... we had an offer....  a crap offer which was rejected..... until we get a deal we won't know if it's better or worse.

600+ Mps voted on article 50, it passed with a large majority and built in a default position if no deal was agrèed, a no deal exit. In the 3 + years since politicians have argued about the default deal they voted for, they have voted on the offer several times, they have voted for what they think they want and what they thought they meant when setting the referendum questions.... and...... nothing.... were any of them free votes?.... were they expected to tow the party line?.... are they more concerned about what will happen at an election?.... are they prepared for the default position they voted for?..... yes I blame them all for the various inactions.

Voting leave was the wrong result, the wrong decision, a bloody terrible idea... but it happened... the financial impact will cause problems...... the political impact will be bigger and cause financial problems..... there is no wipe the slate clean, start from scratch as though nothing happened solution.

The default position is no deal, but MPs will not allow it to happen. The referendum is not legally binding. Parliament can stop no deal democratically....through parliament. You can't just blame all of them! This is a classic case of just blame the politicians. We've had a GE since the article 50 vote, we the public voted them back in! Remainer MPs aren't going to recklessly vote for Brexit in any shape or form, you can't expect them to, why would they in their opinion vote to make their constituents worse off-their constituents who voted them in again. And you can't really blame those voting for May's withdrawal agreement (which would become a deal after being voted for), as that is by definition leaving the EU!

How do you know how hard May negotiated? She isn't just going to go in and roll over. The deal isn't exactly crumbs...especially after a minority of MEPs have disrespected those who we are trying to negotiate with.

So it's the wrong decision and a bad idea but it's ok to just go through with it?!

I think the fundamental reasons some people voted to leave need addressing, i.e a vote against the establishment, but leaving will make these people worse off! The majority of big leavers will benefit from a no deal exit. These are the big rich elite who will take advantage of it. 

[ginge]

Now the other thread has been closed c'mon Regal Beagle you've had all afternoon to think, give me one single tangible benefit that leaving will have on mine or yours or any other everyday persons life (presuming that is you aren't an elite tax avoiding charlatan). 

[For Us All]

4 hours ago, ginge said:

The default position is no deal, but MPs will not allow it to happen. The referendum is not legally binding. Parliament can stop no deal democratically....through parliament. You can't just blame all of them! This is a classic case of just blame the politicians. We've had a GE since the article 50 vote, we the public voted them back in! Remainer MPs aren't going to recklessly vote for Brexit in any shape or form, you can't expect them to, why would they in their opinion vote to make their constituents worse off-their constituents who voted them in again. And you can't really blame those voting for May's withdrawal agreement (which would become a deal after being voted for), as that is by definition leaving the EU!

How do you know how hard May negotiated? She isn't just going to go in and roll over. The deal isn't exactly crumbs...especially after a minority of MEPs have disrespected those who we are trying to negotiate with.

So it's the wrong decision and a bad idea but it's ok to just go through with it?!

I think the fundamental reasons some people voted to leave need addressing, i.e a vote against the establishment, but leaving will make these people worse off! The majority of big leavers will benefit from a no deal exit. These are the big rich elite who will take advantage of it. 

We know how hard the Maybot negotiated because Barnier told us,he said May and her Minister's "never" told him during Brexit' talks that they might opt for a no deal.

Typical remainers strategy,good riddance.

[ginge]

4 minutes ago, For Us All said:

We know how hard the Maybot negotiated because Barnier told us,he said May and her Minister's "never" told him during Brexit' talks that they might opt for a no deal.

Typical remainers strategy,good riddance.

Opt for a no deal even though you don't want it?!

We'll see how Boris gets on then shall we.

[Fosse69]

4 minutes ago, For Us All said:

We know how hard the Maybot negotiated because Barnier told us,he said May and her Minister's "never" told him during Brexit' talks that they might opt for a no deal.

Typical remainers strategy,good riddance.

No point if no-deal cannot get through parliament, it would have destroyed her credibility, if she had none should have been sacked years ago.

[For Us All]

2 minutes ago, ginge said:

Opt for a no deal even though you don't want it?!

We'll see how Boris gets on then shall we.

Well,he can't do any worse than the Maybot.

You've always got to be prepared to walk away during negotiations.

Ask leftie Len McCluskey.

[Fosse69]

2 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Well,he can't do any worse than the Maybot.

You've always got to be prepared to walk away during negotiations.

Ask leftie Len McCluskey.

He has never negotiated under Article 50 conditions.

[ginge]

6 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Well,he can't do any worse than the Maybot.

You've always got to be prepared to walk away during negotiations.

Ask leftie Len McCluskey.

He can. Members of his own government could put a vote of no confidence in. Lets just remember that the government's majority is much smaller than back in 2017, due to recent bi elections.

[Paul6754]

10 hours ago, geosname said:

When the results were declared the £ took a nose dive, mainly I think because the result shook confidence.

Since then, in my opinion, the decline is due to the inaction and inability of politicians to do anything constructive.

Brexit will be damaging, anyone with an iota of sense would agree. How damaging and for how long is anyone's guess/prediction/forecast..... I don't think it will be as devastating as some claim in the short term nor do I think we will float through it as others think..... long term I think it could be, possibly, beneficial if..... and it's a whopper..... politicians can do something instead of arguing about what they can't do.... I have very little faith in that happening.

In my opinion it was a bad decision to leave..... my greatest concern is the damage done and probable future damage to the trust and belief in the political system. Whichever way we go, in or out, half the people who voted will be dissafected and become vulnerable to the power grabbers, out to make a name and reputation on the back of the people.

We have had over three years of 600+ elected members sitting with their thumb up their ass picking their noses.... jaw jaw may be better than war war but an ounce of action is better than 3 years of lip flapping crap.

This mess was not created by the people who voted..... no matter which way they voted.

This issue doesn't question the competence of government it questions the incompetence of parliament.

Geo, If my reading of the "Brexit impasse" is near correct it's that MP's from all political parties, who are supposed to run the country and have a better insight into what Brexit will mean than the regular guy, think leaving is not in the best interests of the UK for a number of reasons. Hence why a vote to leave/Remain should have been an open Parliamentary vote.

 

[Fosse69]

3 minutes ago, Paul6754 said:

Geo, If my reading of the "Brexit impasse" is near correct it's that MP's from all political parties, who are supposed to run the country and have a better insight into what Brexit will mean than the regular guy, think leaving is not in the best interests of the UK for a number of reasons. Hence why a vote to leave/Remain should have been an open Parliamentary vote.

 

The only way for MPs in a representative democracy to put the country first is for them  to vote in a secret ballot, otherwise they will mainly act as delegates with their job at stake. There will be a few who will stand up for what they think is right, perhaps in Sept/Oct they will make the difference .and the decision can be returned back to the people

[Paul6754]

The following headline is ironic, "Iran tanker seizure: Hunt seeks European help on Gulf shipping". When will Brexiteers realize that Britannia does not rule the waves anymore, in terms of ships,  trade of anything and hasn't done for a very long time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49076294

[Fosse69]

2 hours ago, ginge said:

He can. Members of his own government could put a vote of no confidence in. Lets just remember that the government's majority is much smaller than back in 2017, due to recent bi elections.

My reading is he has a year before a Con MP vote, only the opposition leader can put a no confidence vote to the house

[ginge]

10 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

My reading is he has a year before a Con MP vote, only the opposition leader can put a no confidence vote to the house

But they could vote with the opposition as opposed to their own government.