Brexit again...

[Joe B]

That seems very reasonable. Problem is, the right of the Conservative party will never ever go for it. The puce faced gammon that comprises their membership would be having coronaries. Also, I don't feel that the likes of the ERG are particularly bothered about an economically damaging Brexit. They are either so insulated from it or will actually profit.

I also doubt that the #fbpe lot will countenance leaving Europe in any form even in the more sensible way you've described.

 

That's the problem we've got. The ERG are committed to an extreme, ideology-driven personal project. They have no concern as to the damage it can do, economically and socially, to the average British citizen, as their fetish for sovereignty and obscure constitutional qualms take precedent.

 

They could get the hard Brexit they crave so quickly, just over a greater deal of time. I don't understand why Brexit needs to happen RIGHT NOW, THIS VERY INSTANT, THE PEOPLE VOTED OUT AND ITS TIME TO GET ON WITH IT. This is a constitutional and economic re-alignment this nation has never, even seen before (maybe in 1215 if you're a History buff). Patience and informed discussion is needed. Our love of a 'strong leader who can make decisions quickly' baffles me; give me the prevarication and trial and error of democracy. This is going to take time to sort out.

 

Its such a reductive and backwards argument. Our relationship with the EU has been cultivated over 45 years, it is going to take longer than 3 to find a solution mutually beneficial and capable of re-uniting what is now a country split almost perfectly in two.

 

Slow and steady; transition period and re-assess. If we aren't happy with the Customs Union after a bit of trial and error, we can plough on with what, to me, is a act of economic self-harm. I just don't like the 'do it now' mentality, and the black and white nature of British politics, which is choking progress and compromise.

[TheSage]

RB, I don't think you pay a blind bit of attention to reading and digesting what other posters have said on this thread going back several hundred pages.

And if you can't see any of the benefits of membership of the EU then you need to get out more.

I've listed them endlessly, from belonging to the world's biggest free trade area and single market to and from which the best part of 50% of our trade is conducted, to better environmental protection, to paternity pay, to having a stronger influence globally, to helping better understand each other and contributing towards keeping relations peaceful for the last 50 years.

 

Why do you think we spent the best part of 20 years trying to get in? Why did every PM from Macmillan to Cameron want to remain?

If there is no benefit to us they must all have been barmy. Really?

 

I've posted this before -

https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit

It tells us that our economy has done very well since 1973 and membership of the EU has been a major benefit to us.

 

And this was produced by Labour MEPs, answering your question of what has Europe ever done for us?

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/eurolabour/pages/359/attachments/original/1444657976/What-has-Europe-ever-done-for-us.pdf?1444657976

 

Lastly, I posted this one before. A short clip from Richard Asworth, a former Conservative MEP, for balance, stressing how important our relationship has been with the EU in helping international relations and better understanding one another since 1945.

 

You make a number of fair debating points but it's impossible to take what you say seriously with statements like there is nothing positive about the EU and linking Tory austerity to it.

[TheSage]

Joe - what part of "out means out" don't you understand?!!

[Paul6754]

I never particularly wanted a 2nd referendum but last night swung it for me. I don't think there's any way to progress without one. I think No Deal should be an option, as well as remain, and maybe an agreement to reconsider in a decade or so, although that in itself could lead to further instability. Can't see the next tory leader ever agreeing to it though.

 

I agree something along these lines is the way forward and and have posted same before, Hard Brexit, Brexit with whatever the UK can negotiate with the EU and Remain all on the same ballot paper, accept the vote and get on with it, chance to unite the country.

 

Interestingly Total Vote Share in the UK after the Euro elections, Anti-Brexit 40.4%, pro-Brexit 34.9.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48417228

[Guest TommyMac]

I agree something along these lines is the way forward and and have posted same before, Hard Brexit, Brexit with whatever the UK can negotiate with the EU and Remain all on the same ballot paper, accept the vote and get on with it, chance to unite the country.

 

Interestingly Total Vote Share in the UK after the Euro elections, Anti-Brexit 40.4%, pro-Brexit 34.9.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48417228

 

I think the BBC have forgotten that both Labour and Conservative GE manifestos were pro-Brexit and yet, surprisingly given their unbiased reporting of Brexit, they have failed to add their votes to the pro-Brexit share.

[tommytunstall]

This post is common sense of the highest order.

If you lose a vote or an election you don't meekly fall into rank like a sheep and suddenly become a hard-line No Deal leaver. You stick to your views if you still think that's the best way to go.

 

Several things have happened in the last 3 years.

We've belatedly realised that it isn't very simple and easy to leave a club that has given us unrivalled economic growth for 50 years without the risk of damaging the economy, which on top of ten years of austerity is a daft thing to propose.

We've also seen leavers changing their minds and moving towards a No Deal Brexit when many of them before the vote were talking about staying in some kind of economic union.

There are dozens of ways of interpreting Brexit. And that's why, in my view, the Commons has been so split on the process. Most MPs fear that a crashing out of the EU will cause harm. And it's ok for wealthy stockbrokers to tell everyone we should leave - because they are cushioned from reality - but most voters aren't and it's a huge risk when so much of our business is with the EU.

We voted for something that was undeliverable in the way in which Brexiteers proposed. It isn't easy, as they said. We won't get £350 million a week for the NHS. We can't easily replicate trade deals out of thin air. We are not suddenly going to be awash with money. Immigration will not stop.

 

Sadly, the genie is out of the bottle now and Cameron needs lynching twice over. We should have fought harder for our needs, like Thatcher with the rebate. We ought to have shown everyone how beneficial EU membership has been despite its faults.

And we ought to have done what the Tories have done with union votes: that is have a minimum turnout and a threshold for success. It's too late now but 52:48 is not enough to fundamentally change economic tack. But I would say that wouldn't I?

 

The whole things annoys me because we have lots of pressing problems but have spent three years in limbo arguing the toss and wasting billions of pounds in a way that would make Chris Grayling look like a miser. It's split the country. It won't now go away.

Although turnout on Thursday was abysmal and shows that most people are not interested at all.

 

A soft Brexit preserving our economic links with the EU I can live with. But not a No Deal crash and burn scenario in a million years. That's stupidity of the highest order. We've done fine economically in the EU so why on earth risk changing something that has been so good for us?

[Fosse69]

I think the BBC have forgotten that both Labour and Conservative GE manifestos were pro-Brexit and yet, surprisingly given their unbiased reporting of Brexit, they have failed to add their votes to the pro-Brexit share.

 

I assume they have only included votes directly for and against Brexit, whereas Con and Lab will each contain both in spite of the loss of protest votes. Since Con was 60/40 for and Lab 60/40 against Brexit it is possible they cancel each other out, and since the turnout was only about 50% of the referendum only a poll of voters will improve our view.

[Joe B]

I think the BBC have forgotten that both Labour and Conservative GE manifestos were pro-Brexit and yet, surprisingly given their unbiased reporting of Brexit, they have failed to add their votes to the pro-Brexit share.

 

To be fair, Emily Thornberry literally announced on the BBC last night that she is pushing for Labour policy to switch to a confirmatory referendum, with Labour supporting Remain. McDonnell is making similar noises.

 

I've always found accusations of BBC bias fairly bizarre, as it comes from all angles. In the last 24 hours I've seen both the left and the right, as well as the Official Lib Dem Account, accuse the BBC of bias. No doubt the Greens and the Brexit Party have kicked off too.

 

In my view, if everyone thinks you're biased, you're probably not. If anything, they will lean towards the governing party as they have the power to regulate license fees. Considering the governing party is quite overwhelmingly for Brexit, in whatever form, I find it hard to imagine the BBC will be trying to subvert its employers via some underhand, covert Stop Brexit campaign, risking both its journalistic integrity and coffers in doing so.

 

The BBC just reports things fairly blandly and accurately, which tends to annoy anyone and everyone whenever something inevitably clashes with their firmly held beliefs.

[Regal Beagle]

RB, I don't think you pay a blind bit of attention to reading and digesting what other posters have said on this thread going back several hundred pages.

And if you can't see any of the benefits of membership of the EU then you need to get out more.

I've listed them endlessly, from belonging to the world's biggest free trade area and single market to and from which the best part of 50% of our trade is conducted, to better environmental protection, to paternity pay, to having a stronger influence globally, to helping better understand each other and contributing towards keeping relations peaceful for the last 50 years.

 

Why do you think we spent the best part of 20 years trying to get in? Why did every PM from Macmillan to Cameron want to remain?

If there is no benefit to us they must all have been barmy. Really?

 

I've posted this before -

https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit

It tells us that our economy has done very well since 1973 and membership of the EU has been a major benefit to us.

 

And this was produced by Labour MEPs, answering your question of what has Europe ever done for us?

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/eurolabour/pages/359/attachments/original/1444657976/What-has-Europe-ever-done-for-us.pdf?1444657976

 

Lastly, I posted this one before. A short clip from Richard Asworth, a former Conservative MEP, for balance, stressing how important our relationship has been with the EU in helping international relations and better understanding one another since 1945.

 

You make a number of fair debating points but it's impossible to take what you say seriously with statements like there is nothing positive about the EU and linking Tory austerity to it.

 

FREE TRADE HE SAYS!?!?!?!

 

It's free, it just costs £8b a year and you must sign over your sovereignty to the EU.

 

In what way is it a benefit for us to pay £8b a year to not be able to sign our own trade agreements?

[For Us All]

Looking forward to watching Channel 4 news tonight and seeing how they can spin this?😂

[Regal Beagle]

I assume they have only included votes directly for and against Brexit, whereas Con and Lab will each contain both in spite of the loss of protest votes. Since Con was 60/40 for and Lab 60/40 against Brexit it is possible they cancel each other out, and since the turnout was only about 50% of the referendum only a poll of voters will improve our view.

 

Ok but you are happy to count every single green voter and every single lib dem voter as a remainer?

 

Sounds like the "not all brexiters are racist but all racists voted for brexit" logic to me which is obviously false.

[Regal Beagle]

Looking forward to watching Channel 4 news tonight and seeing how they can spin this?😂

 

Great night for Lib Dems and the Greens, would have been even better if it wasn't for those pesky russians.

[For Us All]

How did the EU elections pan out in France,Germany and Italy?

[Regal Beagle]

How did the EU elections pan out in France,Germany and Italy?

 

They must have all been really pro EU considering how amazing it is?

[For Us All]

Ok but you are happy to count every single green voter and every single lib dem voter as a remainer?

 

Sounds like the "not all brexiters are racist but all racists voted for brexit" logic to me which is obviously false.

 

It's alright it's catching,Newcastle,Burnley and Huddersfield have collaborated to claim the points to win the Premier League from Man.City.🤣