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Brexit again...


Davebrad

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I'm not disagreeing with what you say Sage..... but it doesn't change one single fact.

 

Over 30 million people got off their collective asses, found their way to the polling stations, made their mark on the ballot paper and left thinking the result would be honoured..... because they believed the politicians......

17.5 million voted to leave despite what you say above..... only 12.5 million voted to remain..... given what was stated prior to the vote you would expect the politicians to accept and impliment that decision....

 

Politicians lied to 30 million people... not just to the 17.5 million.

 

What would you say to the 30 million to regain their trust in you as a failed politician? Who made promises you reneged on? Who failed miserably to deliver?

 

Brexit has almost become an incidental side issue..... whether we leave or not is becoming irrelevant.... the failure of politicians is becoming the issue.

 

The politicians on all sides have been shown up for what they are,greedy and self-serving.Oh,and liars, who are not to be trusted.

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Eh? Have we had a recount?

 

An estimated 30 million voted..... approximately 17.5 voted leave.

Politicians told the 30 million the result would be implemented..... the other 30million were either to young, inelligable or couldn't be arsed to vote.

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Democracy can.t change it's a basic fact in a democratic society...

As I said previously if we had another referendum and the result was for one side.s wrong result then they would want another. That's why it stands by the first.s result...

The question was a once in a generation decision. Supplemented by this is your decision the government will implement what you decide..

Now why did 17.5m people voted LEAVE they say it was a aged vote was it because these people had lived pre eu. Also was it the remainers idea we would never leave so did not both to make the effort and go to vote...

Democracy on a national basis in the UK is exercised using a system of representatives, some are elected more are not and sit in the Lords. The elected reps are mainly chosen on party manifestos which are implemented or not based on whims, practicalities, or fear of losing seats. Only rarely are referendums used as all they give is a simple answer to an often complex situation. This is made even worse when the result is close, a margin so close that Farage considered it inconclusive and requiring a further referendum if he lost. Unsurprisingly he changed his tune.
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I lived pre EU and that's why I voted leave.

 

so did I, I think it went back to post war, we won the war but the peace was a long hard slog. The country was bled dry, no money to rebuild much, not much investment, the US poured money into Germany and other European countries and helped them re-build. The eu was a way of getting that hand up we needed, i remember going Coventry and London well into the 60's and there was still bomb damage. the railways had been run into the ground, hardly any new roads had been built

So we joined the common market, and got trade and investment, but then in dec. 2009 the Lisbon treaty came into force which amended the treaty of Maastricht, and Rome and giving the European parliament more powers and the creation of a long term president of the European council, and it became more centralised, This is when it became more dictatorial, and when a percentage of the British people became disenchanted with its rulings...

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so did I, I think it went back to post war, we won the war but the peace was a long hard slog. The country was bled dry, no money to rebuild much, not much investment, the US poured money into Germany and other European countries and helped them re-build. The eu was a way of getting that hand up we needed, i remember going Coventry and London well into the 60's and there was still bomb damage. the railways had been run into the ground, hardly any new roads had been built

So we joined the common market, and got trade and investment, but then in dec. 2009 the Lisbon treaty came into force which amended the treaty of Maastricht, and Rome and giving the European parliament more powers and the creation of a long term president of the European council, and it became more centralised, This is when it became more dictatorial, and when a percentage of the British people became disenchanted with its rulings...

How is the European Council a dictatorship when the decisions are taken by consensus?

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Democracy on a national basis in the UK is exercised using a system of representatives, some are elected more are not and sit in the Lords. The elected reps are mainly chosen on party manifestos which are implemented or not based on whims, practicalities, or fear of losing seats. Only rarely are referendums used as all they give is a simple answer to an often complex situation. This is made even worse when the result is close, a margin so close that Farage considered it inconclusive and requiring a further referendum if he lost. Unsurprisingly he changed his tune.

 

lets face it the leave voters were surprised at winning I know I was, and the leave backing politicians were left floundering but Nigel knew it... he ought to have been given the uk's chief negotiator,

Regarding referendums they are advisory mostly, but cammeron knowing he could not loose said "The question was a once in a generation decision. Supplemented by this is your decision the government will implement what you decide.

Its divided this country like never before, but those in parliament will rue not implanting the result come the next election, as well as the local ones on 23rd May, and it wont only be the tories...

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lets face it the leave voters were surprised at winning I know I was, and the leave backing politicians were left floundering but Nigel knew it... he ought to have been given the uk's chief negotiator,

Regarding referendums they are advisory mostly, but cammeron knowing he could not loose said "The question was a once in a generation decision. Supplemented by this is your decision the government will implement what you decide.

Its divided this country like never before, but those in parliament will rue not implanting the result come the next election, as well as the local ones on 23rd May, and it wont only be the tories...

Who knows, the Government usually takes the blame for failure, the opposition`s task is to oppose. What EU experience does Farage have? How many committee meetings has he attended?

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Its divided this country like never before, but those in parliament will rue not implanting the result come the next election, as well as the local ones on 23rd May, and it wont only be the tories...

 

Yep the Cons could well rue not implementing the result come the next General Election as well as the local ones on 23rd May but the bigger picture is the whole country could well rue and regret Leaving the EU for a long time to come and the probabilities tend to suggest that leaving the UK is not going to work out as well as the Leave campaign suggested/promised.

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Democracy on a national basis in the UK is exercised using a system of representatives, some are elected more are not and sit in the Lords. The elected reps are mainly chosen on party manifestos which are implemented or not based on whims, practicalities, or fear of losing seats. Only rarely are referendums used as all they give is a simple answer to an often complex situation. This is made even worse when the result is close, a margin so close that Farage considered it inconclusive and requiring a further referendum if he lost. Unsurprisingly he changed his tune.

 

So why is Labour talking of changing it's manifesto to ward off losing seats to the brexit party?

Manifestos are solely to gain votes at an election, to see what flys with the public. It's got little to do with what's best for the country, if it was they would follow them religiously with no variations...... Labour appeal to the poorer by offering them more of what they think they want at the cost of those who already have it..... Tories try to reverse the roll but imply it's best for everyone in the long run.

Take a look at what's been proposed by both parties regarding elderly care...... if you have worked your nuts off to buy a house you are expected to pay 30k into the pot..... if you have peed it up a wall and live in rented accomodation you don't have to.

How about politicians who have made huge sums off second homes paying it all into the pot?

Politics has deteriorated to school yard level, although it's never been much higher.. neither party is fit to govern, one to far right the other to far left..... they can't get their figures right, their policies right or their lies right..... they are all bloody incompetent.

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So why is Labour talking of changing it's manifesto to ward off losing seats to the brexit party?

Manifestos are solely to gain votes at an election, to see what flys with the public. It's got little to do with what's best for the country, if it was they would follow them religiously with no variations...... Labour appeal to the poorer by offering them more of what they think they want at the cost of those who already have it..... Tories try to reverse the roll but imply it's best for everyone in the long run.

Take a look at what's been proposed by both parties regarding elderly care...... if you have worked your nuts off to buy a house you are expected to pay 30k into the pot..... if you have peed it up a wall and live in rented accomodation you don't have to.

How about politicians who have made huge sums off second homes paying it all into the pot?

Politics has deteriorated to school yard level, although it's never been much higher.. neither party is fit to govern, one to far right the other to far left..... they can't get their figures right, their policies right or their lies right..... they are all bloody incompetent.

 

Spot on Geo.

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I lived worked married and had a kid pre EU .

Money was available, jobs were available and politicians lied

After the EU......

Money is tight, jobs less available, 3 divorces and 6 kids and politicians still lie.

That's not all down to the EU?.

One thing the EU has definitely given us is more politicians with many more lies.

Being alone in a world where countries are forming trade groups is a daunting task, we are late to that particular party and have very little left to trade with. We are a distant runner in that race, overtaken by nations who weren't even in the race before we joined the EU but have surged well ahead of the EU and other countries.

They are the new power house nations, the money makers and shakers.... most of our manufacturing went that way even before the internet tightened the noose.

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Good posts from yourself and Sage. Just one query from me I believe that most sensible leave voters wanted to leave with a deal, not to crash out. That deal has not been agreed partly down to the stubbornness of the ERG group in the Tory party.

Sage.... if any of the above is directed at me mate you are preaching to the converted.... I don't agree with everything you have stated...... especially the over 50s..... but I think the wrong decision was made 3 years ago..... firstly by having the referendum when no one was prepared for it..... but mostly the people chose the wrong option...... I don't think the EU is as good as most think it is but it's a better option than being alone in a world trying to form clubs by trade deals.

As I stated at the beginning of this long thread the loser will be democracy if the decision made..... right or wrong..... was ignored..... the only way out is to implement the decision then vote again..... yes it's messy.... it will cause problems but the first decision will be honoured.

We now have a situation where all parties are running scared of a brexit party for Europe..... even changing manifestos...... it shows what a bunch of crap talking shysters we have leading us.

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How is the European Council a dictatorship when the decisions are taken by consensus?

 

I did not say a dictatorship, but its rulings for example Greece's economic crises where Greece almost collapsed under the drastic austerity measures from the eu and imf, riots,400,000 people emigrated, in 2013 unemployment peaked at 27.5%, and for under 25's 58%. At its height the crisis some worried that the Eurozone's 19 countries would collapse...The immigration crisis in 2017, where the eu's emergency relocation system target of 3000 per month, per member state, Hungary has refused so article 7 has been triggered, so sanctions can be made. Also if Germany had not had so many other countries would have had to and that's affected Angela's party standing.

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An estimated 30 million voted..... approximately 17.5 voted leave.

Politicians told the 30 million the result would be implemented..... the other 30million were either to young, inelligable or couldn't be arsed to vote.

 

33.5 million voted.

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