Brexit again...

[geosname]

I strongly suspect as I said before that in 2010 we very badly need to be in an influential trading block to give us leverage. All successful countries are. No one trades on WTO terms alone. It sounds seductive but the world has moved on and we need the strength and power of belonging to the world's most successful free trading block. Things have developed since the sixties. A small fish in a big pond full of sharks like Russia, China, the USA and India is not a sensible proposition.

If it was so much better and easier and would make more money why are the EU27 other countries not doing that?

 

We had the claim that we can be like Singapore. No we can't and we would not want to be.

And then we had Fox telling us how easy it would be to sign deals. He said he'd do at least 40 by the end of March. 9 I think is the latest count because (a) it takes ages and ages to sort out the documentation and bureaucracy and (b) we are not very important on our own, compared to the EU's 450 million customers.

That was why the Japanese signed an EU trade deal (and Singapore too) while we have struggled to do anything, and why the Japanese PM wanted us to stay in the single market so that Japanese firms can get open access.

 

We now live in a global, interdependent world and to go it alone and not belong to a powerful trading block would be economic madness, a leap into the unknown that we don't need to make or risk after 50 years of economic success in the EU. Why change something that has worked so well?

 

I'm not disagreeing with what you say Sage..... but it doesn't change one single fact.

 

Over 30 million people got off their collective asses, found their way to the polling stations, made their mark on the ballot paper and left thinking the result would be honoured..... because they believed the politicians......

17.5 million voted to leave despite what you say above..... only 12.5 million voted to remain..... given what was stated prior to the vote you would expect the politicians to accept and impliment that decision....

 

Politicians lied to 30 million people... not just to the 17.5 million.

 

What would you say to the 30 million to regain their trust in you as a failed politician? Who made promises you reneged on? Who failed miserably to deliver?

 

Brexit has almost become an incidental side issue..... whether we leave or not is becoming irrelevant.... the failure of politicians is becoming the issue.

[For Us All]

If it meant more votes for Labour Corbyn will make his party change accordingly no matter what.

 

Jezza's views on a 2nd Referendum.

 

[Paul6754]

I strongly suspect as I said before that in 2010 we very badly need to be in an influential trading block to give us leverage. All successful countries are. No one trades on WTO terms alone. It sounds seductive but the world has moved on and we need the strength and power of belonging to the world's most successful free trading block. Things have developed since the sixties. A small fish in a big pond full of sharks like Russia, China, the USA and India is not a sensible proposition.

If it was so much better and easier and would make more money why are the EU27 other countries not doing that?

 

We had the claim that we can be like Singapore. No we can't and we would not want to be.

And then we had Fox telling us how easy it would be to sign deals. He said he'd do at least 40 by the end of March. 9 I think is the latest count because (a) it takes ages and ages to sort out the documentation and bureaucracy and (b) we are not very important on our own, compared to the EU's 450 million customers.

That was why the Japanese signed an EU trade deal (and Singapore too) while we have struggled to do anything, and why the Japanese PM wanted us to stay in the single market so that Japanese firms can get open access.

 

We now live in a global, interdependent world and to go it alone and not belong to a powerful trading block would be economic madness, a leap into the unknown that we don't need to make or risk after 50 years of economic success in the EU. Why change something that has worked so well?

 

I agree Sage, people think it's just a matter of snapping the fingers and hey presto a new company comes into being, a new product is made, marketed and sold, I'm afraid it doesn't happen like that. The UK still probably punches above it's weight in terms of innovation but it's a long way from a patent to a product that makes substantial amounts of money.

 

The UK was once seen by the World as a gateway to Europe, in the future that no longer will be the case and I can't imagine that's a positive for the UK economy.

 

I've posted before that my reason for being a Remainer is the Economy, it's doing well, why take any risk. The economy pays for everything, when it comes to a choice between economics and politics, economics wins every time.

[geosname]

I agree Sage, people think it's just a matter of snapping the fingers and hey presto a new company comes into being, a new product is made, marketed and sold, I'm afraid it doesn't happen like that. The UK still probably punches above it's weight in terms of innovation but it's a long way from a patent to a product that makes substantial amounts of money.

 

The UK was once seen by the World as a gateway to Europe, in the future that no longer will be the case and I can't imagine that's a positive for the UK economy.

 

I've posted before that my reason for being a Remainer is the Economy, it's doing well, why take any risk. The economy pays for everything, when it comes to a choice between economics and politics, economics wins every time.

 

If the economy is doing well why is the pound so low?

[Fosse69]

Did not Cameron say the referendum would be honoured... I believe in democracy the result is the result...if we have another one and it's to remain. Then the leavers will try for another vote and so it goes on... I along with17.5 million did our part then left it to our representatives to deliver on the result. Because they can.t why should we do it again?

Cameron and honour? He soon ran away from his blunder, same as his fixed term parliament which prevents change. Democracy is not a fixture it has to change with the times, referendums are banned in Germany, I wonder why. But since we had one, why not confirm our direction with another?

[TheSage]

Point taken, Dave, Geo, and a strong one.

 

The problem was that when the vote was taken there were different views of what Brexit meant and no-one on the Leave side dared to suggest that it would be very difficult and costly to leave an organisation that has served us so well for nearly 50 years. It hasn't proved easy to do.

 

You really can't go for a No Deal because of the possible consequences. The Irish border? Our future relationship with the EU if we just rudely walk away? The fact that we can't trade alone successfully on WTO terms.

 

Do you not think things like paternity leave, ensuring that 2 million more workers get holiday pay, a maximum working hours directive, a cleaner environment, cheaper and easier holidays, the ability to work, study and travel freely, and of course the contribution the EU has made to peace since WW2 - are these not all BIG positives that we've gained from the EU?

 

One of the problems we've had is the press have bombarded us with negative stories about the EU for years, and never published the positives.

 

How many people are aware of what the EU has done for our local area?

Rondol Technology got a grant of £113,000 for poultry packaging research.

The EU provided Hallmark Electronics Limited with £274,608 for heart disease.

NUL College got over £200,000 towards establishing their tourism courses.

Keele has had over £10 million for smart energy research.

Over 300 staff at the NSU Hospital are from EU countries.

Staffs Chamber of Commerce was given over 500k.

The Beth Johnson Trust has had over 300k.

The list goes on and on and on. Yet the only stuff we read about or hear is how much the EU costs us and we get nothing in return.

 

I'm guessing that many of us remember how bad our economy was before we joined the EU and that we joined to boost our economy and have access to a successful market. Why on earth put that at risk?

[Davebrad]

Democracy can.t change it's a basic fact in a democratic society...

As I said previously if we had another referendum and the result was for one side.s wrong result then they would want another. That's why it stands by the first.s result...

The question was a once in a generation decision. Supplemented by this is your decision the government will implement what you decide..

Now why did 17.5m people voted LEAVE they say it was a aged vote was it because these people had lived pre eu. Also was it the remainers idea we would never leave so did not both to make the effort and go to vote...

[TheSage]

If the economy is doing well why is the pound so low?

 

Economies are like a roller coaster ride aren't they? Troughs and peaks, ups and downs.

I don't think the sky will fall in if we leave the EU but I do think it will be bad for our economy and a backward step into the dark.

 

It's hard to be precise because no-one knows exactly what it would have been like if we hadn't joined but most academics, economists, university researchers say that joining the EU has boosted our economy since 1973 and that we've done better since that time than either France or Germany. Overall it has been a very positive thing.

 

https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

 

I think Paul's point above about the UK being the gateway to Europe for overseas firms is a very important point.

Japanese firms have invested billions here since the eighties primarily because it has given them access to the single market. No wonder the Japanese PM wants us to remain close to Europe. And no wonder companies in their hundreds have been fleeing the UK and moving to Ireland, Germany and Holland.

 

The world won't end if we leave. Of course not. But it will have a big negative impact on our economy as all the studies show, from the government's own figures to the IMF to the CBI to the TUC. They can't all be wrong.

[TheSage]

I'm not 100% sure but I think overall the under 50s voted to remain and over 50s voted to leave.

 

Why this big divide? It's hard to tell and if I attempt myself to explain it I'll come across as patronising and unfair. But I'm an older voter and I know folk in my family and friends who voted out so I think I can have a stab at some of the reasons but leavers on here know more about it than me.

 

Older people are far less likely to accept immigration. It was barely apparent when they were growing up but now you see and hear different people from all around the world in your local shop and on the buses - and many people feel uncomfortable.

 

I suppose if they are told that the NHS will get another £350 million a week if we leave is another influential factor if you are getting older and reliant on the NHS.

 

Some perhaps think that things were better in my day and can recall the forties and fifties when we weren't in the EU and see no reason why we can't turn the clock back and bring those days back.

 

I also feel strongly that the press on the right has saturated us with scare stories and negative publicity about the EU and - a pure guess here - but I reckon most Express and Mail readers are retired folk.

 

Older people are more conservative. Younger people travel more widely, mix more readily and accept social integration and immigration more than older people.

 

Of course, as I said before, there is an issue with immigration, although I think it's been a positive overall. In some areas too many immigrants have swamped the local community, like Boston. There is a cultural aspect to it all as "foreign" shops and buildings appear in more numbers and different languages are heard in every high street. We are a small island and there is a limit. I can see all that.

And although I do get annoyed by the far right who are racist and deliberately prey on people's fears and prejudices I know that the vast majority of leave voters are not and simply think there is a growing imbalance and it's time it stopped.

 

Immigration is the elephant in the room isn't it? It doesn't get discussed directly because we're all anxious about getting labelled.

 

But I do think younger people who have grown up in a multi-cultural society and are richer for it are more accepting than older voters and can see the enormous benefits it brings. Many older people don't get that.

 

I'll get my hat!

[For Us All]

Point taken, Dave, Geo, and a strong one.

 

The problem was that when the vote was taken there were different views of what Brexit meant and no-one on the Leave side dared to suggest that it would be very difficult and costly to leave an organisation that has served us so well for nearly 50 years. It hasn't proved easy to do.

 

You really can't go for a No Deal because of the possible consequences. The Irish border? Our future relationship with the EU if we just rudely walk away? The fact that we can't trade alone successfully on WTO terms.

 

Do you not think things like paternity leave, ensuring that 2 million more workers get holiday pay, a maximum working hours directive, a cleaner environment, cheaper and easier holidays, the ability to work, study and travel freely, and of course the contribution the EU has made to peace since WW2 - are these not all BIG positives that we've gained from the EU?

 

One of the problems we've had is the press have bombarded us with negative stories about the EU for years, and never published the positives.

 

How many people are aware of what the EU has done for our local area?

Rondol Technology got a grant of £113,000 for poultry packaging research.

The EU provided Hallmark Electronics Limited with £274,608 for heart disease.

NUL College got over £200,000 towards establishing their tourism courses.

Keele has had over £10 million for smart energy research.

Over 300 staff at the NSU Hospital are from EU countries.

Staffs Chamber of Commerce was given over 500k.

The Beth Johnson Trust has had over 300k.

The list goes on and on and on. Yet the only stuff we read about or hear is how much the EU costs us and we get nothing in return.

 

I'm guessing that many of us remember how bad our economy was before we joined the EU and that we joined to boost our economy and have access to a successful market. Why on earth put that at risk?

 

All that money you claim is coming from the EU is our own money being recycled by Brussels back to the UK.

It's not a gift from the EU.

[geosname]

Point taken, Dave, Geo, and a strong one.

 

The problem was that when the vote was taken there were different views of what Brexit meant and no-one on the Leave side dared to suggest that it would be very difficult and costly to leave an organisation that has served us so well for nearly 50 years. It hasn't proved easy to do.

 

You really can't go for a No Deal because of the possible consequences. The Irish border? Our future relationship with the EU if we just rudely walk away? The fact that we can't trade alone successfully on WTO terms.

 

Do you not think things like paternity leave, ensuring that 2 million more workers get holiday pay, a maximum working hours directive, a cleaner environment, cheaper and easier holidays, the ability to work, study and travel freely, and of course the contribution the EU has made to peace since WW2 - are these not all BIG positives that we've gained from the EU?

 

One of the problems we've had is the press have bombarded us with negative stories about the EU for years, and never published the positives.

 

How many people are aware of what the EU has done for our local area?

Rondol Technology got a grant of £113,000 for poultry packaging research.

The EU provided Hallmark Electronics Limited with £274,608 for heart disease.

NUL College got over £200,000 towards establishing their tourism courses.

Keele has had over £10 million for smart energy research.

Over 300 staff at the NSU Hospital are from EU countries.

Staffs Chamber of Commerce was given over 500k.

The Beth Johnson Trust has had over 300k.

The list goes on and on and on. Yet the only stuff we read about or hear is how much the EU costs us and we get nothing in return.

 

I'm guessing that many of us remember how bad our economy was before we joined the EU and that we joined to boost our economy and have access to a successful market. Why on earth put that at risk?

 

Economies are like a roller coaster ride aren't they? Troughs and peaks, ups and downs.

I don't think the sky will fall in if we leave the EU but I do think it will be bad for our economy and a backward step into the dark.

 

It's hard to be precise because no-one knows exactly what it would have been like if we hadn't joined but most academics, economists, university researchers say that joining the EU has boosted our economy since 1973 and that we've done better since that time than either France or Germany. Overall it has been a very positive thing.

 

https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

 

I think Paul's point above about the UK being the gateway to Europe for overseas firms is a very important point.

Japanese firms have invested billions here since the eighties primarily because it has given them access to the single market. No wonder the Japanese PM wants us to remain close to Europe. And no wonder companies in their hundreds have been fleeing the UK and moving to Ireland, Germany and Holland.

 

The world won't end if we leave. Of course not. But it will have a big negative impact on our economy as all the studies show, from the government's own figures to the IMF to the CBI to the TUC. They can't all be wrong.

 

I'm not 100% sure but I think overall the under 50s voted to remain and over 50s voted to leave.

 

Why this big divide? It's hard to tell and if I attempt myself to explain it I'll come across as patronising and unfair. But I'm an older voter and I know folk in my family and friends who voted out so I think I can have a stab at some of the reasons but leavers on here know more about it than me.

 

Older people are far less likely to accept immigration. It was barely apparent when they were growing up but now you see and hear different people from all around the world in your local shop and on the buses - and many people feel uncomfortable.

 

I suppose if they are told that the NHS will get another £350 million a week if we leave is another influential factor if you are getting older and reliant on the NHS.

 

Some perhaps think that things were better in my day and can recall the forties and fifties when we weren't in the EU and see no reason why we can't turn the clock back and bring those days back.

 

I also feel strongly that the press on the right has saturated us with scare stories and negative publicity about the EU and - a pure guess here - but I reckon most Express and Mail readers are retired folk.

 

Older people are more conservative. Younger people travel more widely, mix more readily and accept social integration and immigration more than older people.

 

Of course, as I said before, there is an issue with immigration, although I think it's been a positive overall. In some areas too many immigrants have swamped the local community, like Boston. There is a cultural aspect to it all as "foreign" shops and buildings appear in more numbers and different languages are heard in every high street. We are a small island and there is a limit. I can see all that.

And although I do get annoyed by the far right who are racist and deliberately prey on people's fears and prejudices I know that the vast majority of leave voters are not and simply think there is a growing imbalance and it's time it stopped.

 

Immigration is the elephant in the room isn't it? It doesn't get discussed directly because we're all anxious about getting labelled.

 

But I do think younger people who have grown up in a multi-cultural society and are richer for it are more accepting than older voters and can see the enormous benefits it brings. Many older people don't get that.

 

I'll get my hat!

 

Sage.... if any of the above is directed at me mate you are preaching to the converted.... I don't agree with everything you have stated...... especially the over 50s..... but I think the wrong decision was made 3 years ago..... firstly by having the referendum when no one was prepared for it..... but mostly the people chose the wrong option...... I don't think the EU is as good as most think it is but it's a better option than being alone in a world trying to form clubs by trade deals.

As I stated at the beginning of this long thread the loser will be democracy if the decision made..... right or wrong..... was ignored..... the only way out is to implement the decision then vote again..... yes it's messy.... it will cause problems but the first decision will be honoured.

We now have a situation where all parties are running scared of a brexit party for Europe..... even changing manifestos...... it shows what a bunch of crap talking shysters we have leading us.

[Jacko51]

17.5 million voted to leave despite what you say above..... only 12.5 million voted to remain

 

Eh? Have we had a recount?

[Jacko51]

Now why did 17.5m people voted LEAVE they say it was a aged vote was it because these people had lived pre eu.

 

I lived pre EU and that's why I voted remain.

[Paul6754]

If the economy is doing well why is the pound so low?

 

Because of the uncertainty over Brexit Geo.

[For Us All]

I lived pre EU and that's why I voted remain.

 

I lived pre EU and that's why I voted leave.