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Brexit again...

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Perhaps with hindsight a lot of things would have been done differently. With each week that passes the situation becomes more and more polarised and fractious. 

I think Article 50 was enacted to get the negotiations underway. And of course back then we were told how easy it would be and we'd hold all the cards. No deal might well have been the default option but in the 2 months of the official campaign it wasn't mentioned as a viable option by anyone, despite Rabb telling us it was until he was shown TV footage of his exact words! Believe you me, leavers reminded us constantly about how we could chose from Canada, Canada Plus, Norway, a Swiss arrangement, a bespoke deal. It's be dead easy and very simple. A great many people fell into that trap. 

The problem about blaming everyone in the Commons for this impasse is that the government holds all the cards and we never had any attempt at cross party support until the 11th hour. It was May's deal or nowt. That got torn apart by her own MPs in the ERG or we'd be out by now. A fact that Tory supporters conveniently forget. Any attempt by the opposition to get anything through was blocked by the government whipping MPs or naturally not wanting their opponents to take any credit for anything. So we had an impasse. All the government's fault. Who knows if the Labour Party or the Liberal party's negotiated deals would have worked or not? They were never given a chance. A great deal of this mess was caused by the ERG who have stuck their oar in, stopped any sensible deal from passing, and now they've got their way and put their man in power.

I do agree though generally that the Commons is split between hard core remainers, hard core no dealers and the majority in the middle. So finding a solution is difficult.

But Brexit is not a party issue. We should have had an open cross party group 3 years ago who came up with the best plan they could and asked voters if they wanted it or not in a second vote when everyone knew clearly what the consequences would be. Yes, I know we voted narrowly to leave but no-one knew at all what the terms would be and what exactly we were letting ourselves in for. 

 

 

Edited by TheSage
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25 minutes ago, TheSage said:

It's not the Tory Party of Heath, Major, Macmillan any longer. It's the Conservative and UKIP party now. 

The remaining one nation Tories should immediately resign the whip and be free to vote with their consciences. Then there would be an election and we'd see what the Nasty Party did then.

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9 minutes ago, Heatwave said:

The remaining one nation Tories should immediately resign the whip and be free to vote with their consciences. Then there would be an election and we'd see what the Nasty Party did then.

Can we go straight into an election or does there not have to be a 2 week period where an alternative govt could be formed. What happens if parliament does not vote by a 2/3 majority to have an election? 

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2 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Can we go straight into an election or does there no have to be a 2 week period where an alternative govt could be formed. What happens if parliament does not vote by a 2/3 majority to have an election?

If Boris calls an election it will happen

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42 minutes ago, TheSage said:

It's not the Tory Party of Heath, Major, Macmillan any longer. It's the Conservative and UKIP party now. 

Surely the Tory/UKIP party since they are hardly conservative by their actions.

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An election has been on the cards for weeks. Johnson has found a magic money tree and has been promising the moon and stars to everyone. Money for this, that and the other has been thrown around like confetti with gay abandon, totally un-costed, so we know what an honest, generous, principled, caring man he is!!

But an election is not going to heal the wounds. It's not a party issue but a national one and one in which the only sensible outcome has to be a soft Brexit or a confirmatory vote. Pushing for an extreme No deal or alternatively standing on a No Brexit platform isn't, in my view, feasible or workable. It would not heal the divide but widen it. But what's in the best interests of the country isn't the same as what's in the best interests of BJ and the Cabinet.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, geosname said:

If Boris calls an election it will happen

Maybe, we live in uncertain times, parliament could go for a referendum and block no deal in the meantime.

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9 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Maybe, we live in uncertain times, parliament could go for a referendum and block no deal in the meantime.

Denying a vote with a referendum? ...... interesting 

Why not let the public decide who they want to take us and where?

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26 minutes ago, TheSage said:

An election has been on the cards for weeks. Johnson has found a magic money tree and has been promising the moon and stars to everyone. Money for this, that and the other has been thrown around like confetti with gay abandon, totally un-costed, so we know what an honest, generous, principled, caring man he is!!

But an election is not going to heal the wounds. It's not a party issue but a national one and one in which the only sensible outcome has to be a soft Brexit or a confirmatory vote. Pushing for an extreme No deal or alternatively standing on a No Brexit platform isn't, in my view, feasible or workable. It would not heal the divide but widen it. But what's in the best interests of the country isn't the same as what's in the best interests of BJ and the Cabinet.

 

 

Nothing will heal these wounds sage..... the politicians made it a political...... party issue..... from all parties.

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26 minutes ago, geosname said:

Nothing will heal these wounds sage..... the politicians made it a political...... party issue..... from all parties.

Wounds inflicted only by Remainers who refused to accept the result.

All this mess is down to them.

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1 minute ago, For Us All said:

Wounds inflicted only by Remainers who refused to accept the result.

All this mess is down to them.

All this mess is down to those MPs on both sides of the divide who refused to accept the deal that was offers. 

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56 minutes ago, geosname said:

Denying a vote with a referendum? ...... interesting 

Why not let the public decide who they want to take us and where?

Will the public decide or another hung parliament? Libs and SNP take seats off Cons, Brexit take seats off Lab, tactical voting runs riot, what will be the result?

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3 hours ago, TheSage said:

A public vote does not trump parliament, particularly since the referendum was, strictly speaking, advisory.

The nature of a parliamentary democracy is that we elect MPs to do what they think is best. Of course they take soundings from the electorate [and so they should] but we don't live in a country where decisions are made by public vote - in this case based on a campaign in which the leave side was found guilty of irregularities, peddled a pack of lies, and had no sensible plan in place.

Churchill got it right when he said that the first priority of an MP should be to do what they think is best for the UK. Second, he should think of his constituents, of which he is a representative and not a delegate. And third, he should think about his party. These, he said, are at the heart of any healthy democracy. 

So you can now add Churchill to your list of public enemies, alongside Major, Hammond, Grieve, Heseltine, Brown, Blair, Lord Young and the rest. 

 

 

 

It really does trump parliament though though. 

Are you a big churchill fan now?

I like him, he had a proven track record at fighting European tyranny. 

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39 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Will the public decide or another hung parliament? Libs and SNP take seats off Cons, Brexit take seats off Lab, tactical voting runs riot, what will be the result?

The Brexit party will definitely take seats off Labour,especially in Stoke and hopefully join up with the Tories.

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1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

Will the public decide or another hung parliament? Libs and SNP take seats off Cons, Brexit take seats off Lab, tactical voting runs riot, what will be the result?

Libs will take seats off Labour and Tories...... SNP will take Seats from labour.... brexit party will take seats off Labour, I doubt they will stand against Tories...... if the Tories and brexit party join it's a done deal.

Libs/brexit party/Tories will split the Labour vote....... libs won't get enough to control..... and Boris comes marching home again... with Nige of course.

The result....... Tories win a devided nation..... it stays divided...... and we take another turn around the mulberry bush....... petitions will be signed..... marches and protests will be held..... speeches will be made..... the media, Twitter, Facebook etc will have a fit and an orgasm at the same time...... oh and there could be a legal challenge or two

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