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11 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Mentioned is the right word but it wasn't debated in  these videos, None of the people in those videos mention or say anything about the consequences of leaving by WTO rules although Cameron does say if the UK votes Leave it faces a decade of uncertainty, 2 years to get out and 7 years to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. How he gets 2 + 7 = 10 I don't know!!!!!

You did not know anything about the consequences  of voting leave.

Far too optimistic, Govt projects always take longer than the sum of the parts.

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The EU has given you, me and everyone else in the UK, RB, unrivalled economic prosperity and growth, and peace and mutual understanding for the last 50 years. If you like facts, there are two there for you to ponder. Don't take that for granted. If it's so awful why are 450 million people happy to stay in it? Why do Norway and three other countries pay mega bucks to access it? Why do the rest of the world think we're stark, raving mad, Trump and Putin apart? 

Blimey, the other day, there was a bloke on tv saying that he still wanted to leave because he wanted the £350 million a week for the NHS. Complete pack of lies but he still thinks it's true. Another fella said he voted out to keep the 3-pin plug! Someone else on the radio said he didn't like all these EU rules but when asked could not name a single one that we hadn't voted for. Another didn't realise that we can largely control immigration but don't choose to do so.The misunderstanding is staggering. 

The path were are heading down is so stupid that it beggars belief. Airlifting medical supplies? Forking out millions to compensate farmers? Spending on extra officials at the coast to try and cut down delays? It's an utter disgrace. All these billions spent that could have gone on hospitals, schools and the police we are throwing about like confetti to try and mitigate the results of a this brain-dead act of self harm. If it's such a good idea why are we spending billions trying to lessen the impact?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If we leave we have to leave with a no deal. Terrible negotiations by May and in house bickering has left us with a poor deal that the EU will not re-negotiate and Corbyn has no intention in going along with anything the Conservatives propose.

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2 hours ago, TheSage said:

The EU has given you, me and everyone else in the UK, RB, unrivalled economic prosperity and growth, and peace and mutual understanding for the last 50 years. If you like facts, there are two there for you to ponder. Don't take that for granted. If it's so awful why are 450 million people happy to stay in it? Why do Norway and three other countries pay mega bucks to access it? Why do the rest of the world think we're stark, raving mad, Trump and Putin apart? 

Blimey, the other day, there was a bloke on tv saying that he still wanted to leave because he wanted the £350 million a week for the NHS. Complete pack of lies but he still thinks it's true. Another fella said he voted out to keep the 3-pin plug! Someone else on the radio said he didn't like all these EU rules but when asked could not name a single one that we hadn't voted for. Another didn't realise that we can largely control immigration but don't choose to do so.The misunderstanding is staggering. 

The path were are heading down is so stupid that it beggars belief. Airlifting medical supplies? Forking out millions to compensate farmers? Spending on extra officials at the coast to try and cut down delays? It's an utter disgrace. All these billions spent that could have gone on hospitals, schools and the police we are throwing about like confetti to try and mitigate the results of a this brain-dead act of self harm. If it's such a good idea why are we spending billions trying to lessen the impact?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are 450 million people happy to stay in the EU though?

18 countries will definitely be happy to stay in because they all get out more than they pay in.Dont know about the other 10 though who subsidise the rest.

The UK is the third best contributor after Germany and France and the majority of the UK are not happy to stay in the EU,especially when we lose £9 billion per year?

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If given a referendum a lot of countries would vote out. People are fed up with the EU and the direction they are going. I was talking to a Swede last weekend who reckons that 70% would vote leave should they be given a referendum. Italians and French would vote to leave and the Spanish and Dutch could vote out if given the chance. The EU are shitting themselves if we have a successful Brexit because we will be the first of many of Western European countries to leave the sinking ship.

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10 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

We voted to leave.

And I can blame the EU all day long. It's a terrible institution and the sooner it collapses the better.

I don't think that's far off according to Reuters?

The index of the EU block's big banks plunged last Thursday to the level it was in 2012 at the peak of the euro zone debt crisis.That means the banks are worth now what they were when Greece,Ireland and Portugal needed bailouts.Cyprus ordered it's banks to seize some deposits and Spain's banks were saved from collapse only by a goverment rescue.

I don't suppose us leaving will help much?

 

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6 hours ago, For Us All said:

Are 450 million people happy to stay in the EU though?

18 countries will definitely be happy to stay in because they all get out more than they pay in.Dont know about the other 10 though who subsidise the rest.

The UK is the third best contributor after Germany and France and the majority of the UK are not happy to stay in the EU,especially when we lose £9 billion per year?

You persist in knowing the cost of everything but the value of nothing. Our EU membership fee is little more than 1% of our GDP spending and less than we spend on overseas aid or NI. It's a tiny proportion of what we spend. What do we get in return? The ability to access freely the world's biggest and most successful free trade and single market area, with nearly 500 million customers. Trade with the EU amounts to nearly half our overall business and is worth around £800 billion a year. 3 million jobs are reliant on EU trade. And you moan about our paltry membership fee! 

Goldman Sachs reckon Brexit has already cost us £87 billion - and that's before we've even left!

S&P say we're losing £550 million a week, mainly because of the drop in sterling.

The Bank of England think it's closer to £800 million.

In the meantime the government has spent £97 million on consultancy fees and £4.2 billion on preparations for a No Deal.

In the UK of course business investment has nosedived. Sterling has dropped like a stone against the dollar and the Euro. House repossessions are at their highest for three years. Growth was negative in the last quarter and we are close to recession, after ten years of austerity.

If it's such a good deal why on earth are we throwing billions and billions of pounds down the drain that we could be spending on health and welfare? It's utter madness and stupidity.

And you complain because we pay a little more than 1% a year to belong to the most successful trading bloc the world has ever seen. You are having a laugh.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Far too optimistic, Govt projects always take longer than the sum of the parts.

Interesting to note Fosse that if Cameron is right and the UK faces 10 years of uncertainty, given the average age of a human in the UK is ca 80 years that's 10/80 = 12.5% of a person's life who is living today in the UK will be lived in uncertain times and uncertainty doesn't usually equate to economic prosperity.

And all this because a small majority were swayed mainly by two lies.

Edited by Paul6754

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21 hours ago, TheSage said:

The EU has given you, me and everyone else in the UK, RB, unrivalled economic prosperity and growth, and peace and mutual understanding for the last 50 years. If you like facts, there are two there for you to ponder. Don't take that for granted. If it's so awful why are 450 million people happy to stay in it? Why do Norway and three other countries pay mega bucks to access it? Why do the rest of the world think we're stark, raving mad, Trump and Putin apart? 

Blimey, the other day, there was a bloke on tv saying that he still wanted to leave because he wanted the £350 million a week for the NHS. Complete pack of lies but he still thinks it's true. Another fella said he voted out to keep the 3-pin plug! Someone else on the radio said he didn't like all these EU rules but when asked could not name a single one that we hadn't voted for. Another didn't realise that we can largely control immigration but don't choose to do so.The misunderstanding is staggering. 

The path were are heading down is so stupid that it beggars belief. Airlifting medical supplies? Forking out millions to compensate farmers? Spending on extra officials at the coast to try and cut down delays? It's an utter disgrace. All these billions spent that could have gone on hospitals, schools and the police we are throwing about like confetti to try and mitigate the results of a this brain-dead act of self harm. If it's such a good idea why are we spending billions trying to lessen the impact?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. The £350m was demonstrably true using the EU's own official 2015 budget showing how much UK money they controlled. I've said this time and time again but you keep repeating the lie that it was a lie. It's literally cast iron sage, not up for debate. You need to contact the EU if you have any concerns about their budget. Stop bringing it up, it's not even funny any more.

2. 450m don't like it.

3. Why are Norway not banging down the door to become fully fledged members?

4. The EU itself says that 90% of global economic growth in the next 10 years is coming from outside of the EU.

5. Peace and mutual understanding has zero to do with the EU. In fact it's quite clear that there is not a mutual understanding between the UK and the EU on the future. There never has been a political understanding ever.

6. That will be those pro-brexit biased media articles you are desperate to claim exist? They interview a moron saying that he wants to keep 3-pin plugs even though it has nothing to do with brexit. That's the true media bias. Using terms like hard brexit and cliff edge and crashing out. Lies.

7. Speculate to accumulate. There is an upfront cost to brexit, no one is denying that. But over the long term we will have more money to invest in schools and hospitals etc. Not sure why you are obsessed with air lifting short life medical supplies in? How do you think they get to the UK currently?

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Despite Brexit,Billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe is on the verge of striking a deal to make his new 4×4 Land Rover Defender-style vehicle in South Wales, next to UK Ford's Bridgend factory which is due to close next year.

 

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Saw a brilliant comment earlier (unfortunately can't remember from whom) that we're seeing the last gasp death-twitches of the militant remainer rhetoric.

The latest is the leaking of literal worst case scenario government documents in order to pretend that they're actual predicitions. Intentionally leaving out that this is exactly what the government should be doing and in fact, it should have been done years ago.

74 days.

 

 

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477 pages of the same people arguing the same thing for 3 years.  

Has anybody's opinion actually altered?

Argument with counter argument backed up with biased interpretation of the situation labelled as facts...

We are in this situation because Cameron didnt think he could win the 2015 election outright.  He thought he was going to have to do a deal with the SNP so he inserted policies that would appease the far right of his own party that he could easily negotiate away with the SNP.  Then a very clever man came along who commissioned an even cleverer company to write algorithms and harvest your data...  now whoever pays the most money to said clever folk will win any vote/election because thanks to social media (including forums like this) they can reinforce the views of the converted, marginalise those who are not for turning and influence appropriately those open to persuasion.  I aren't talking just about targeted advertising, I am talking about every word you have ever typed, language you use, patterns, likes, things you do, relationships, friends demographic etc has all been harvested.  These people know more about you than you know yourself and if you are an active user of social media they can pretty much get you to do whatever they are being paid to get you to do.  On things like Facebook, adverts are a sideline, the product is you, it's you that they are selling for Billions.

Instead of going around in circles trying to justify what you think you believe, think about how the hell we ever got to this point in the first place and it has nothing to do with democracy or the will of the people.  There are some very rich people in this world who would greatly benefit from destabilizing the western world, but modern destabilising doesnt entail riots and wars, it simply harnesses data to split nations down the middle paralysing its ability to react to anything coherently.  

Carry on bickering about brexit and what might happen all you want.  Keep declaring the need to be democratic, sovereign nations, eu states, benefits of eu membership all you want, it's exactly what the puppet masters want because whilst we are all busy arguing about something that is likely to have zero impact one way or the other in the long term we aren't watching what they are getting up to.

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2 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Who's they? the lizard people?

Some people did some really good targetting adverts basically.

Perhaps it's the establishment elite we're trying to get away from,Soros and Co?

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3 hours ago, For Us All said:

Perhaps it's the establishment elite we're trying to get away from,Soros and Co?

All this "elite" malarkey?  Does it mean that the elite in this country is more than 48% of the voting electorate?  Many of the "elite" want us out of the EU so they can ditch stuff like workers' rights, environmental standards (see J Ratcliffe) and the like. 

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2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

All this "elite" malarkey?  Does it mean that the elite in this country is more than 48% of the voting electorate?  Many of the "elite" want us out of the EU so they can ditch stuff like workers' rights, environmental standards (see J Ratcliffe) and the like. 

Big Jim will be bringing more investment and jobs to Wales.You can't  be criticising him for that surely.

The Welsh will not like you for being so negative?There are jobs at stake here.

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I've been pointing out all that, Nofinikea, for several months but the problem is once you've been brainwashed by the press/social media/billionaire barons who control most of our news outlets then it's difficult to admit that you've been sold a pup. It's much simpler to con people than to get them to admit they've been conned.

I agree with you 100%. Social media played the most significant part in swinging the vote. But was it legal? Was it open and honest? Were expenses declared? Were users unaware of what was happening? Did on-line voters give their consent for their data to be sold on? The answer is "no". It's complicated and impossible to explain in brief but basically I think we all need to question if it's possible to hold a free and fair vote again. 

This leads on to the nub of the argument because people no longer can distinguish fact from fiction, truth from fake news. And as we've seen on here if the facts don't support my prejudice then it's project fear and I'll close down the debate that way because I refuse to discuss it with you in a rational manner. It's quite frightening really because once you deny the facts and blur the truth by misrepresenting reality, democracy is dead.

Channel 4, the Uncivil War, is instructive. As is the Great Hack if you have Netflix. So too the investigative journalism of Carole Cadwalladr. Look up CA, SCL, AIQ and Russian Prof Kogan. Read the House of Commons' parliamentary report on the misuse of data, Zuckerberg's refusal to give evidence and Cummings' found in contempt of Parliament.

Vote Leave (website conveniently closed down now), dozens of its campaigners, Leave.EU, Banks' firm, have all been found guilty of unlawful campaigning, illegal text spam, illegal advertising, failing to declare donations and on and on and on. Police investigations continue.

This was the kind of nonsense fired at people's Facebook accounts millions of times over in the 48 hours before the day of the vote.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Vote-Leave-50-Million-Ads.pdf

 

 

 

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On 17/08/2019 at 11:39, philpvfc said:

If we leave we have to leave with a no deal. Terrible negotiations by May and in house bickering has left us with a poor deal that the EU will not re-negotiate and Corbyn has no intention in going along with anything the Conservatives propose.

Spot on,no deal is the only option due to the Maybot and the intransigence of the EU.The withdrawal agreement keeps us hostage to the EU and has rightly been rejected three times in parliament.

We are leaving on 31st October and will £39 billion and £13 billion a year better off.

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2 hours ago, For Us All said:

Big Jim will be bringing more investment and jobs to Wales.You can't  be criticising him for that surely.

The Welsh will not like you for being so negative?There are jobs at stake here.

Is that Big Jim who has been guilty of breaching loads of environmental pollution regulations?

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