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Brexit again...


Davebrad

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3 hours ago, The_godfather said:

Yeah, it all happened in a voter vacuum. Probably one of those nice, non-domicile Dyson ones I would imagine. The voters just decided democratically that they didn't like the undemocratic EU (where, entirely incidentally, you have elected representatives, and vetoes as a privileged state) and they would just rather be led by  Alexander Johnson. Everything else that has happened was purely incidental.

The EU have, from Day 1, been entirely clear eyed about the whole thing. To say they are are delusional is utterly, utterly astonishing. They may still not quite believe that the UK are continuing to drive off the cliff, expecting the brakes to be applied, even if at the last second, but they have been preparing for it to happen, because they act rationally, in collective self-interest. They don't imagine that No Deal would be sanctioned, because it's like declaring war on yourself. But if it is, they'll say - "OK, come back to the table when you're ready." 

The UK, in marked contrast, has lurched from one crisis to the next, with no fixed policy, no coherent strategy, no notion of what might happen next as ideology bumps into practical realities and spaffing billions up the wall in desperation for "No Deal Preparation" when it looks like it might be possibility.

It is likely to get much worse in the next round. Watch for the next series of "compromises" that will occur - desperate attempts to chalk up the optical illusion of a 'win' that will instead cause lasting damage to the UK.

😂 incredible that some people still stick their heads in the sand and cling to these completely rejected ideas.

 

Let the bells ring out for brexit.

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3 hours ago, The_godfather said:

I'm not sure what your definition of good deal is, but there is no better deal than the one that the UK currently has. Take out Regal's delicious "sovereignty", or whatever pseudo intellectual nonsense you want to call it, and it's a cold negotiation about regulations, laws, relationships, governance, frameworks. Brexit is an ideology, an idea, a dream - the language it is painted in is emotive, not rational

Even funnier than the first post.

 

That's like a defence barrister telling the jury to ignore the smoking gun with the fingerprints on it.

 

We voted for sovereignty multiple times. We are not sovereign in the EU. Therefore it cannot be the best deal possible.

 

Try to actually argue the facts rather than just dismiss the main and underlying reason why we are leaving the EU.

 

 

If you ignore all Man City's goals then we won 0-1. Shame it doesn't work like that 😂

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3 hours ago, The_godfather said:

Yeah, it all happened in a voter vacuum. Probably one of those nice, non-domicile Dyson ones I would imagine. The voters just decided democratically that they didn't like the undemocratic EU (where, entirely incidentally, you have elected representatives, and vetoes as a privileged state) and they would just rather be led by  Alexander Johnson. Everything else that has happened was purely incidental.

The EU have, from Day 1, been entirely clear eyed about the whole thing. To say they are are delusional is utterly, utterly astonishing. They may still not quite believe that the UK are continuing to drive off the cliff, expecting the brakes to be applied, even if at the last second, but they have been preparing for it to happen, because they act rationally, in collective self-interest. They don't imagine that No Deal would be sanctioned, because it's like declaring war on yourself. But if it is, they'll say - "OK, come back to the table when you're ready." 

The UK, in marked contrast, has lurched from one crisis to the next, with no fixed policy, no coherent strategy, no notion of what might happen next as ideology bumps into practical realities and spaffing billions up the wall in desperation for "No Deal Preparation" when it looks like it might be possibility.

It is likely to get much worse in the next round. Watch for the next series of "compromises" that will occur - desperate attempts to chalk up the optical illusion of a 'win' that will instead cause lasting damage to the UK.

but why as it lurched from one crisis to another? could a parliament persuing its own ends, mp's pursuing their own agenda, the 2nd step revoking article 50 was passed by 498 to 114, a majority of 384... so why are we only leaving in 15days time? and if it was such a bad idea why did a majority of 384 vote for it?

the eu have been clear from day 1, they (the uk ) will realise they  (the uk ) cannot do this to the eu, we will make it so difficult they (the uk ) will beg to stay in, also any of the rest 27 will see if we make it difficul for them (the uk ) it will put them (any of the 27 ) off. And all that loverly money will come rolling in.

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3 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

but why as it lurched from one crisis to another? could a parliament persuing its own ends, mp's pursuing their own agenda, the 2nd step revoking article 50 was passed by 498 to 114, a majority of 384... so why are we only leaving in 15days time?

 

Because a considerable number of Tory MPs failed to support the Tory Prime Minister or it could have happened last March as originally planned.  And because that Tory Prime Minister decided to hold a general election in the middle of negotiations and lost her majority.  It's been a Tory Party cock up from start to finish.

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23 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

What do you call a Government that ignores criticism, or even does not allow criticism?  after 5yrs

a dictatorship, if the opposition can't win enough seats to be a viable opposition, then in the uk we fall back on our constitution,  a house of lords and a monarchy, and have a election after 5yrs... but as we've seen a govt. that hasn't got a working majority is a hung parliament... 

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17 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Because a considerable number of Tory MPs failed to support the Tory Prime Minister or it could have happened last March as originally planned.  And because that Tory Prime Minister decided to hold a general election in the middle of negotiations and lost her majority.  It's been a Tory Party cock up from start to finish.

aye it was a  bit of a cock-up, with differing views on brexit amongst the tories, but labour, dup, snp, lib.dems, saw their chance after the 2017 election, which reduced the tory majority, and started voting against every proposal, that's why boris wanted another election, he got his mandate and he goes into talks from a lot much stronger position, plus by making it law that we leave in dec2020 with or without a deal the eu have not got a final say to any talks...

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1 hour ago, Davebrad said:

a dictatorship, if the opposition can't win enough seats to be a viable opposition, then in the uk we fall back on our constitution,  a house of lords and a monarchy, and have a election after 5yrs... but as we've seen a govt. that hasn't got a working majority is a hung parliament... 

Dictatorships only happen with electoral systems that do not elect parliaments based on electoral majorities, Germany had their fill of those and always has hung parliaments but they agree on a middle way.

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2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Because a considerable number of Tory MPs failed to support the Tory Prime Minister or it could have happened last March as originally planned.  And because that Tory Prime Minister decided to hold a general election in the middle of negotiations and lost her majority.  It's been a Tory Party cock up from start to finish.

Hence a historically resounding tory victory in December?

It just doesnt add up jacko. 

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2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

  It's been a Tory Party cock up from start to finish.

Not really, they got what they wanted in the end. And a healthy majority. That is the kind of cock up the opposition would have loved to have.

There was a referendum resulting in a vote for Brexit. Then there was a general election, centring mainly about Brexit. And this was won handsomely by the only party pledging unambiguously - Brexit.

Now I don't like it. I think it is not a good thing. But the mental gymnastics required to argue now that this should not happen are beyond any kind of reasonable, er mental gymnastics.

Time to accept it and move on. The world won't end. You spent a lot of time not in the EU after all.

Me, just more trips to the alien police....

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30 minutes ago, toyahw said:

Not really, they got what they wanted in the end. And a healthy majority. That is the kind of cock up the opposition would have loved to have.

There was a referendum resulting in a vote for Brexit. Then there was a general election, centring mainly about Brexit. And this was won handsomely by the only party pledging unambiguously - Brexit.

Now I don't like it. I think it is not a good thing. But the mental gymnastics required to argue now that this should not happen are beyond any kind of reasonable, er mental gymnastics.

Time to accept it and move on. The world won't end. You spent a lot of time not in the EU after all.

Me, just more trips to the alien police....

I was replying to Dave's question about why the whole process had lurched from one crisis to another. 

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6 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

I was replying to Dave's question about why the whole process had lurched from one crisis to another. 

Fair enough. Wouldn't the simple answer be because everyone cocked it up. And what crisis? I have had a bit of inconvenience, but I doubt any in the UK (other than EU nationals in the equivalent position to myself) would have noticed anything much in practical terms? Too much hyperbole surrounds the subject. And not enough sense. In my opinion.

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8 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

Where did you get your stats from?

I just looked on de.statista.com and Autumn 2019 shows 51% at fairly happy. The trend is up.

 

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153857/umfrage/zufriedenheit-mit-der-demokratie-in-der-eu/

I cant remember, some poll or other..... never reliable but always used to prove the point you want to make.

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