Brexit again...

[Jacko51]

21 hours ago, Davebrad said:

there was suggestions that church bells should be rung to celebrate on 1st feb, but some vicars didn't like the idea, bringing the almighty in as a leaver...so what say street parties?...

All in favour of the church bells. It’s my birthday! 😁

[Jacko51]

55 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

how come that's the only thing you all say "you didn't know what you were voting for", after 3 votes ALL the same result, we know... that beggers the question for you remoaners "do I understand what democracy means" Accept it come on in the waters fine, and that's the coffee you can smell...its not such a big deal to admit you were beat... and the world wont stop turning, the sun still comes up in the east,  cause its now blue over  Stoke on Trent...

You could argue how come the majority did not vote for the Get Brexit Done party?

[Aussie Rules]

UK democracy is far superior to Putin democracy in that the the UK ballot box is still sacrosanct. Boris is on political notice. Putin never is.

[Jacko51]

1 hour ago, Davebrad said:

how come that's the only thing you all say "you didn't know what you were voting for", after 3 votes ALL the same result, we know... that beggers the question for you remoaners "do I understand what democracy means" Accept it come on in the waters fine, and that's the coffee you can smell...its not such a big deal to admit you were beat... and the world wont stop turning, the sun still comes up in the east,  cause its now blue over  Stoke on Trent...

Remoaners?  Really, Dave?  That is becoming more pathetic by the day. 

[Fosse69]

Quite reasonable to moan because we have not yet been told what the effect of Brexit is on jobs and prosperity, report not being published for some reason.

[The_godfather]

4 hours ago, geosname said:

Nige hasn't done anything, Boris hasn't done anything.... the voters have done it.... it was their choice and they decided overwhelmingly to do it... that's democracy in action.

It seems the only people who don't seem to realise what's happening are Labour and the people who kept shouting that if the people got to choose again they would choose remain...... and the EU who seem to be in some confused state and delusional.... they still haven't grasped the notion that the UK leaving isn't dependant on a deal, that will be a fixed point in time.

Yeah, it all happened in a voter vacuum. Probably one of those nice, non-domicile Dyson ones I would imagine. The voters just decided democratically that they didn't like the undemocratic EU (where, entirely incidentally, you have elected representatives, and vetoes as a privileged state) and they would just rather be led by  Alexander Johnson. Everything else that has happened was purely incidental.

The EU have, from Day 1, been entirely clear eyed about the whole thing. To say they are are delusional is utterly, utterly astonishing. They may still not quite believe that the UK are continuing to drive off the cliff, expecting the brakes to be applied, even if at the last second, but they have been preparing for it to happen, because they act rationally, in collective self-interest. They don't imagine that No Deal would be sanctioned, because it's like declaring war on yourself. But if it is, they'll say - "OK, come back to the table when you're ready." 

The UK, in marked contrast, has lurched from one crisis to the next, with no fixed policy, no coherent strategy, no notion of what might happen next as ideology bumps into practical realities and spaffing billions up the wall in desperation for "No Deal Preparation" when it looks like it might be possibility.

It is likely to get much worse in the next round. Watch for the next series of "compromises" that will occur - desperate attempts to chalk up the optical illusion of a 'win' that will instead cause lasting damage to the UK.

[The_godfather]

On 11/01/2020 at 06:03, Davebrad said:

Why. the strength of the majority of the British electorate. Plus at least 80 majority in parliament. And any of the others who believe in democracy. 19 in the Brexit leave vote
So now the EU know we arn.t dithering. And now have the resolve to push ahead and if we can.t get a good deal we will leave with out one...
As the saying goes" you can roll the dice till they call your bluff. But you can.t win till your not afraid to lose"...
 

With respect, I think you're mistaking what strength is Dave.

What the government now has is breathing room. And clarity - an effective mandate for continuing Brexit. But that's not strength. Strength is having the levers at the negotiating table to push and pull on your counterpart, and the UK doesn't have those - the EU does. Alexander might think No Deal is a big lever, but, unsurprisingly, his lever isn't as big as he would like to think.

The British electorate has zero impact on any deal. They are not in the room. They don't get a say on anything that happens now, until the next general election in 5 years, by which time, it's too late. So how are they the UK's strength? UK negotiators aren't going to ask the public for input, they will get whatever they can.

I'm not sure what your definition of good deal is, but there is no better deal than the one that the UK currently has. Take out Regal's delicious "sovereignty", or whatever pseudo intellectual nonsense you want to call it, and it's a cold negotiation about regulations, laws, relationships, governance, frameworks. Brexit is an ideology, an idea, a dream - the language it is painted in is emotive, not rational.

Let me tell everyone a little story. My brother in law worked for the NHS in patent law and emerging tech, and started an NHS part-owned company that develops new medical technologies. They currently have plans to sell in Europe and the US, but don't know how they can sell in the UK currently because they don't know who is going to be the regulator, or what the regulations will be. That's right, a British company that has spent British money on developing British products doesn't know how it will sell said products to benefit British people. It's Brexit in a microcosm. It will probably change, and work itself out, sort of somehow. But that's probably the rub now. Things will sort of somehow work themselves. What a way to live.

[geosname]

2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

You could argue how come the majority did not vote for the Get Brexit Done party?

There were 3 parties who said they would get brexit done, one was get it done our way, (renegotiate, another referendum and campaign against it,) which didn't make much sense to anyone.... brexit party and the tories..... so a big majority voted to get it done.... just not the jezza way.

[geosname]

43 minutes ago, The_godfather said:

Yeah, it all happened in a voter vacuum. Probably one of those nice, non-domicile Dyson ones I would imagine. The voters just decided democratically that they didn't like the undemocratic EU (where, entirely incidentally, you have elected representatives, and vetoes as a privileged state) and they would just rather be led by  Alexander Johnson. Everything else that has happened was purely incidental.

The EU have, from Day 1, been entirely clear eyed about the whole thing. To say they are are delusional is utterly, utterly astonishing. They may still not quite believe that the UK are continuing to drive off the cliff, expecting the brakes to be applied, even if at the last second, but they have been preparing for it to happen, because they act rationally, in collective self-interest. They don't imagine that No Deal would be sanctioned, because it's like declaring war on yourself. But if it is, they'll say - "OK, come back to the table when you're ready." 

The UK, in marked contrast, has lurched from one crisis to the next, with no fixed policy, no coherent strategy, no notion of what might happen next as ideology bumps into practical realities and spaffing billions up the wall in desperation for "No Deal Preparation" when it looks like it might be possibility.

It is likely to get much worse in the next round. Watch for the next series of "compromises" that will occur - desperate attempts to chalk up the optical illusion of a 'win' that will instead cause lasting damage to the UK.

I was referring to their delusional view of what they seem to want to become but I think they still believe they control all the strings and everyone will just fall in line..... apparently only 40% of Germans are happy with the EU other countries less so.... it will be interesting to see what happens.

Again I think the wrong decision was made but that's democracy.

[hillmanhunter]

18 minutes ago, geosname said:

I was referring to their delusional view of what they seem to want to become but I think they still believe they control all the strings and everyone will just fall in line..... apparently only 40% of Germans are happy with the EU other countries less so.... it will be interesting to see what happens.

Again I think the wrong decision was made but that's democracy.

Where did you get your stats from?

I just looked on de.statista.com and Autumn 2019 shows 51% at fairly happy. The trend is up.

 

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153857/umfrage/zufriedenheit-mit-der-demokratie-in-der-eu/

[Davebrad]

5 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

All in favour of the church bells. It’s my birthday! 😁

happy birthday then, so a double celebration, unless theres any more birthdays, anniversaries etc... what a great honour with them being on our liberation day, and it does warrant a public holiday. but I suppose that's asking too much.

[Davebrad]

4 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Remoaners?  Really, Dave?  That is becoming more pathetic by the day. 

no, its pathetic to be still opposing the 2016 referendum result, now in 2020...

[Davebrad]

3 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Quite reasonable to moan because we have not yet been told what the effect of Brexit is on jobs and prosperity, report not being published for some reason.

I know moaning is a british trait, but honestly whats the use (I feel a song coming on ) it doesn't bloody do any good...

[Jacko51]

10 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

no, its pathetic to be still opposing the 2016 referendum result, now in 2020...

Pathetic is expecting people to change their minds about something they believe in. Just because Leave won the referendum doesn’t mean that those who voted Remain should suddenly say ooh sorry I’m sorry I didn’t agree with you I’ve changed my mind. Accepting the result of the Referendum, which I do, doesn’t mean I think it is the best thing for the country. If losing a vote meant all the losers had to change their minds then it would be pointless having another general election. 
 

[Fosse69]

10 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

I know moaning is a british trait, but honestly whats the use (I feel a song coming on ) it doesn't bloody do any good...

What do you call a Government that ignores criticism, or even does not allow criticism?