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Brexit again...


Davebrad

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2 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Total cobblers! How do you come to this conclusion? The vast majority of Tory MPs voted in favour of Theresa May's deal, while only a handful of Labour members of parliament voted for it!  The Labour party is equally (if not more) split on their views on Brexit than even the Tories.

The Tories have been the Government though out this shambles, it is up to them to come up with a solution, it is the opposition`s job to oppose/improve.  

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3 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

The Tories have been the Government though out this shambles, it is up to them to come up with a solution, it is the opposition`s job to oppose/improve.  

By your definition, Labour are therefore clearly anti-democratic (as they probably are anyway!) Although I voted to remain, 17.4 million people (the majority in the referendum) voted to leave and as a democrat I (reluctantly) accept that decision.  The Liberal Democrats, The Greens, The SNP and vast swathes of the Labour party are working to overturn that decision--how can that possible be democracy at work? Can I remind you that 82% of MPs voted in favour of a referendum in 2015 and even more ironically, it was Hilary Benn who moved the referendum writ in parliament! Also, 70%+ of MPs voted to trigger article 50--why therefore are so many now trying to thwart a democratic referendum result?

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13 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

The Tories have been the Government though out this shambles, it is up to them to come up with a solution, it is the opposition`s job to oppose/improve.  

If only they had come up with something when they had the chance mate.... as it's in the national interest and a national crisis it would have been appropriate to put something positive forward..... it seems politicians are fond of saying what they don't want but rather shy when it comes to how to get what they do want.

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5 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

By your definition, Labour are therefore clearly anti-democratic (as they probably are anyway!) Although I voted to remain, 17.4 million people (the majority in the referendum) voted to leave and as a democrat I (reluctantly) accept that decision.  The Liberal Democrats, The Greens, The SNP and vast swathes of the Labour party are working to overturn that decision--how can that possible be democracy at work? Can I remind you that 82% of MPs voted in favour of a referendum in 2015 and even more ironically, it was Hilary Benn who moved the referendum writ in parliament! Also, 70%+ of MPs voted to trigger article 50--why therefore are so many now trying to thwart a democratic referendum result?

The easy explanation is remainers thought they would win the referendum..... they then assumed a deal would be negotiated instead of capitulated then realised they had made no deal the default position..... overall not very bright for people in the know.

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12 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

By your definition, Labour are therefore clearly anti-democratic (as they probably are anyway!) Although I voted to remain, 17.4 million people (the majority in the referendum) voted to leave and as a democrat I (reluctantly) accept that decision.  The Liberal Democrats, The Greens, The SNP and vast swathes of the Labour party are working to overturn that decision--how can that possible be democracy at work? Can I remind you that 82% of MPs voted in favour of a referendum in 2015 and even more ironically, it was Hilary Benn who moved the referendum writ in parliament! Also, 70%+ of MPs voted to trigger article 50--why therefore are so many now trying to thwart a democratic referendum result?

A referendum (advisory) was held 3 years ago based on a concept, 3 years later it is up to the MPs to decide based on reality..  If they cant do that irrespective of what party they are in, surely the democratic way would be a confirmatory referendum with all the options clearly explained. There is now no easy way out, we are in the mire up to our necks and it will take at least 10 years to break even. 

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27 minutes ago, geosname said:

If only they had come up with something when they had the chance mate.... as it's in the national interest and a national crisis it would have been appropriate to put something positive forward..... it seems politicians are fond of saying what they don't want but rather shy when it comes to how to get what they do want.

May held an election to get a bigger majority to push a soft Brexit through, but lost her majority, then did not offer to share the task but instead kept it all secret and didn't come up with a plan for article 50. Then the MPs voted on Article 50 not knowing what it entailed. Shambles throughout.

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1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

A referendum (advisory) was held 3 years ago based on a concept, 3 years later it is up to the MPs to decide based on reality..  If they cant do that irrespective of what party they are in, surely the democratic way would be a confirmatory referendum with all the options clearly explained. There is now no easy way out, we are in the mire up to our necks and it will take at least 10 years to break even. 

I would ask whose reality.... leavers... remainers.... politicians..... but it hardly matters.

10 years?......... 555......... you old optimist you.... 555

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1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

May held an election to get a bigger majority to push a soft Brexit through, but lost her majority, then did not offer to share the task but instead kept it all secret and didn't come up with a plan for article 50. Then the MPs voted on Article 50 not knowing what it entailed. Shambles throughout.

Article 50 was triggered before May's election by the way.

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2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Article 50 was triggered before May's election by the way.

I don't doubt you Jean it's so long ago since Adam asked Eve if it was a responsibly sourced, environmentally friendly EU Apple she was chewing on or a home grown one the same as his.

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2 hours ago, geosname said:

The easy explanation is remainers thought they would win the referendum..... they then assumed a deal would be negotiated instead of capitulated then realised they had made no deal the default position..... overall not very bright for people in the know.

That reminds me of a saying in this neck of the woods, a joke perhaps: 'you don't have to be knowledgeable to be a politician'.

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5 minutes ago, Aussie Rules said:

That reminds me of a saying in this neck of the woods, a joke perhaps: 'you don't have to be knowledgeable to be a politician'.

This is sadly true.  It is supported  by the Leavers who never thought they would win so had no clue how to achieve Brexit and had blokes like David Davis leading the negotiations.  He was the guy who turned up with his mates at the first meeting with Barnier and Co without a single piece of paperwork!

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3 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

A referendum (advisory) was held 3 years ago based on a concept, 3 years later it is up to the MPs to decide based on reality..  If they cant do that irrespective of what party they are in, surely the democratic way would be a confirmatory referendum with all the options clearly explained. There is now no easy way out, we are in the mire up to our necks and it will take at least 10 years to break even. 

I would dearly have liked to see remain win the referendum.  However it didn't and if you're a democrat, I can't see how you can possibly argue that a second referendum is "democratic" when the will of the people i.e the leave vote in 2016 hasn't yet been honoured.  If there were to be another referendum, what do you suggest the question should be?  And if that still comes out as a leave vote do we go on to best of 3, best of 5 or until the non-democratic parliament gets the remain decision it really wanted in the first place?!!

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