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Brexit again...


Davebrad

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28 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

Well that's it, the eu aren't/wont budging, 31st October independence day, bring it on...

After waiting all Summer, is it any surprise that they are not taken in by this half baked proposal. The Irish situation has always been the problem, so why I we not come up with something workable. Most of the UK know what the Governments game is, but obviously you cannot see through it.

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17 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

No it didnt.

Erm, yes it did. Literally why it was voted down so many times and why you will find videos of prominent leavers and even Jeremy Corbyn stating this.

To end the backstop both the EU and UK would have to agree. No EU agreement = no end to the backstop = UK is stuck in the customs union without any ability to get out.

In March 2019 they made a (typical EU) "concession" whereby they said that they promised not to keep the UK stuck but as they are complete liars and not to be trusted this was also voted down.

The only way we would have any hope of leaving the customs union and scrapping the backstop would be if we could prove that the EU was acting in bad faith by keeping us in. Even this would not guarantee we could leave it however.

https://fullfact.org/europe/irish-backstop/

 

17 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

We can leave as soon as we have the solution in place, the onus is on us to provide that solution.  Boris says the technology is available...

So, if your man is telling the truth, there is no problem with the backstop is there?

We can leave without any of this manufactured garbage on October 31st like we voted for.

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17 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

No it didnt.

Found the Corbyn quote for you, I know you hate it when I post evidence but this is how you will learn the truth.

 

The Labour leader added: "What I said was there were concerns about the way in which it could lock you into a customs union from which you could never negotiate any removal."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49757000

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Erm, yes it did. Literally why it was voted down so many times and why you will find videos of prominent leavers and even Jeremy Corbyn stating this.

To end the backstop both the EU and UK would have to agree. No EU agreement = no end to the backstop = UK is stuck in the customs union without any ability to get out.

In March 2019 they made a (typical EU) "concession" whereby they said that they promised not to keep the UK stuck but as they are complete liars and not to be trusted this was also voted down.

The only way we would have any hope of leaving the customs union and scrapping the backstop would be if we could prove that the EU was acting in bad faith by keeping us in. Even this would not guarantee we could leave it however.

https://fullfact.org/europe/irish-backstop/

 

We can leave without any of this manufactured garbage on October 31st like we voted for.

As a supporter of this Government for you to call the EU complete liars, is astonishing even by your standards.

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3 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Corbyn is playing politics.

You are wrong. 

Read the actual documents for yourself.

The objectives were pre agreed, basically if we meet the objectives we leave the union.  Borris says we have the technology available so what's the problem?  The EU say they have investigated every border control system on the planet and the technology isnt available.

Fact is, like it or not, we have a land borders with the EU.  That is going to have to be controlled but to do that we either need the mysterious tech that Boz reckons exists but hasnt demonstrated or we rip up the good friday agreement.

Clearly you are advocating ripping up the good friday agreement which is what a no deal Brexit would do.  Advocating ripping up the good Friday agreement is a really really stupid thing to do.

 

Wrong from start to finish as usual.

 

I'm not arguing the facts with you on this anymore, everyone knows why May's deal was voted down, both sides even agreed on it. That's not up for debate and cannot be written off as party politics.

 

It is also a fact that it would be potentially out of the UK's hands to leave the customs union in the future should the backstop come into effect. Again, that is a categorical fact and isn't actually up for debate either.

 

Such a deal is wholly unacceptable to the UK, as is, in my view, any deal which gives the EU sovereignty over any part of the UK. The people of this country voted and decided that this is not how we want to be governed.

 

The backstop is manufactured by the EU as a way to create leverage in negotiations. I've posted videos of the EC admitting this in the queens English!

We don't have to have a border in Northern Ireland if we do not want one.

Ireland does not want a border.

The EU are the only ones saying we would have to have a border.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

That is also true.  

There is no real issue with the backstop.  Half the house vote against it on principle of opposition which is stupid.  That is then propped up by the no deal merchants who wont approve anything and seem to think the EU is evil.

I suspect that if May's deal was now resubmitted it might well sneak through.

So if, after leaving, we negotiate a free trade deal with the EU which we are told will be easy, there will be no border checks there?  So how will we have reclaimed our borders?? I don’t get it. 

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7 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

That is also true.  

There is no real issue with the backstop.  Half the house vote against it on principle of opposition which is stupid.  That is then propped up by the no deal merchants who wont approve anything and seem to think the EU is evil.

I suspect that if May's deal was now resubmitted it might well sneak through.

Initially when both major parties vowed to honour the result it was thought the backstop would/could tie us to the EU indefinitely. 

Although the political atmosphere  has shifted the backstop hasn't but none of the political parties have offered an alternative until recently,  whether that has credibility is a seperate question. The backstop still has the same consequences the politicians rejected 3 times.

Parliament has a great propensity to say what it doesn't want but little appetite to offer what it does want or alternatives. Although when given the opportunity they defeated their own proposals.

I doubt the backstop was inserted for the UKs benefit.

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6 hours ago, geosname said:

Parliament has a great propensity to say what it doesn't want but little appetite to offer what it does want or alternatives.

It's now pretty obvious that some are trying to block Brexit no matter what.

However, I think we have run into a brick wall trying to find any workable alternative to the backstop. It seems the EU is not convinced of BoJo's alternative, but I doubt it will get through Parliament anyway.

I dunno... all politicians have come out very badly over this Brexit shambles. Looking back at the campaigns, was there ever anything mentioned about how Brexit could be achieved? I don't recall anything other than promises about what would be the benefits after we left, which is tantamount to running before you can walk.

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23 minutes ago, VantaaVale said:

I dunno... all politicians have come out very badly over this Brexit shambles. Looking back at the campaigns, was there ever anything mentioned about how Brexit could be achieved? I don't recall anything other than promises about what would be the benefits after we left, which is tantamount to running before you can walk.

Agreed.  And was there ever any mention about the problems surrounding our land border with the EU in Ireland?

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7 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Agreed.  And was there ever any mention about the problems surrounding our land border with the EU in Ireland?

Not that I recall.

Prior to the referendum, it would appear that not a single minute was spent drawing up plans for how to leave. This shocking lack of forethought from people who govern the UK, or have political influence, should be of concern to everyone.

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17 hours ago, tommytunstall said:

After waiting all Summer, is it any surprise that they are not taken in by this half baked proposal. The Irish situation has always been the problem, so why I we not come up with something workable. Most of the UK know what the Governments game is, but obviously you cannot see throuthgh it.

the eu know that that is our main stumbling block, but will not even consider compromising a little, they know how important that border is to peace in N.I... we are trying but its been said a border has 2 sides. In a ideal world we've left the eu, what does the eu see as a answer to the border?

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