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Brexit again...


Davebrad

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On 05/09/2019 at 18:34, TheSage said:

It's a complete mess and thanks to Cameron we'll be arguing the toss about this for years to come when in realty it is and was no big deal and was never in the voters' top 4-5 concerns at every election up to 2015. Nor was it much mentioned by politicians, Farage apart.

I still say it hasn't been remotely worth the trouble and discord it's caused. There is no compelling reason that trumps the nonsense and upheaval we've gone through and will go through now in the next 5-10 years into the distant future. The Tories have created a Frankenstein monster and now it's out of the box we can't get it back in again. 

They've have gone so far the right that we might as well call them the Tory UKIP party. The days of Macmillan's one nation Toryism have gone and now we're left with a bunch of far right loonies intent on taking us over a cliff, lying every time they open their mouths, and sacking over 20 of the best MPs they'll ever have. Even Johnson's brother has had enough. Truly amazing.

Any yet we've still got people on here who think they're trustworthy, honest and doing a good job!

 

 

I agree Sage and have said the same myself, there was absolutely no need or reason for any of this. Farage has been the biggest champion of Brexit and together with Johnson have been most responsible for this mess arrived at by lies, lies and more lies. Farage failed to become an MP yet he's managed to create this monster by the backdoor, a testament to how polarizing and dangerous a person he is.

What makes me chuckle is when Leavers claim they knew what they were voting for and what the implications were. Did Leavers really vote for people in the UK to become poorer, did they vote to re-instate a hard border in Ireland, did they vote for the pound to lose 20% of it's value in such a short time etc, did they "Heckers like" the majority of Leavers voted for the lies pedaled by Farage and Johnson.

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8 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

The point is, some of (generic) you seem to want to try and tell anyone who will listen that voting against May's deal and voting against No Deal is the same as wanting to remain.  This is simply not the case, and it's that kind of commentary that drags any debate into the gutter.

Ireland.  It's a problem, it's always been a problem  one way or another but nobody, and I mean nobody, considered that we had a land border with the EU.  Nobody considered that putting a hard border between NI and the Republic will contravene the Good Friday Agreement and most probably lead to further troubles.  None of the Leave Campaigners considered it or have offered a solution to it, so until we have a solution which prevents that agreement it is quite feasible and sensible for MPs to vote against that particular deal on the grounds of the unsatisfactory backstop and vote against no deal on the grounds that they are not right wing pillocks intent on damaging the country to make a futile point.  All whilst still supporting the withdrawal when a suitable solution is found.

It's not the EUs fault that everybody who campaign for and voted to leave completely forgot about Ireland.  So when some of you "experts" on getting out of the EU actually explain how we can do a deal that will prevent a hard border, given that the North will not accept a border down the Irish Sea and your beloved Tories are propped up by the DUP, then maybe a deal can be done.  However it is not the job of remainers to solve this problem.

It was <ovf censored> from the get go because everything that was promised were lies, blatant proven lies btw.  Where is this easiest deal in the history of deals?  Where is the queue of emerging economies falling over themselves to signs deals with us?  How do they deliver the promise on the bus whose numbers were fabricated?

You lot cant even solve the problems you created and just shout <ovf censored> in the hope nobody will notice you haven't got the first idea what it is you actually voted for and how it would be achieved.

 

By simple definition a deal and no deal can't be the same..... in this situation they create the same end result which is no choice.

The leaders and prominent members of both leave and remain campaigns were in the know politician's, if you are asking why the leave campaind didnt bring up Ireland then you have to question why remain didnt bring it up either.... wouldnt that have been a strong argument to remain?

Statements have been made that several options to a hard boarder have been put forward...... it's not up to leavers to find a solution.... it's up to parliament, that's their job, that's what they get paid for....... bearing in mind both of the 2 big parties vowed to honour the result of the referendum and they are all in the know.

The leave voters didn't create this problem..... that's like saying if more remain voters had voted leave the problem would not exist because parliament could not afford to ignore 75% of the voters...... this problem actually started when both parties made the promise in their election manifesto to honour the result.... if either one had stood on a remain platform this whole mess would have taken a different direction..... if either one had said this decision is not in the best interest of the country, we can not support it... this mess would not exist...... surely that was their prime objective, they must have considered those consequences before they endorsed the result, they are the people with all the information, they are the people in the know.

If either of them had made that decision article 50 would not have been enacted...... three and a half years would not have been wasted..... billions of pounds would not have been wasted..... the £ would not have been battered etc etc.

I suspect that decision was not taken because of the fear of voter backlash...... both were afraid to alienate 17.5 million voters.... control was at stake.... seats could be lost.... salaries and positions would be lost.... that is party politics ..... not what's in the best interest of the country.

The people did not create this screwup.... they were asked to make a choice..... they made it..... it went to hell in a basket from that point on because, as with most things in parliament, it became party political. 

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2 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

I agree Sage and have said the same myself, there was absolutely no need or reason for any of this. Farage has been the biggest champion of Brexit and together with Johnson have been most responsible for this mess arrived at by lies, lies and more lies. Farage failed to become an MP yet he's managed to create this monster by the backdoor, a testament to how polarizing and dangerous a person he is.

What makes me chuckle is when Leavers claim they knew what they were voting for and what the implications were. Did Leavers really vote for people in the UK to become poorer, did they vote to re-instate a hard border in Ireland, did they vote for the pound to lose 20% of it's value in such a short time etc, did they "Heckers like" the majority of Leavers voted for the lies pedaled by Farage and Johnson.

Of course leavers knew what they voted for..... there were only 2 choices on the ballot paper.

The consequences of what they voted for was in the hands of the politicians... as in elections.

Both campaigns were rubbish...... one side making statements of benefit the other refuting them... the remain side forgot the first rule of vote winning..... tell the people they will get what they want.... the second rule should be.... don't spend most of your time talking about the other side.

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On 06/09/2019 at 05:34, TheSage said:

 

Any yet we've still got people on here who think they're trustworthy, honest and doing a good job!

 

 

Not me sage...... I take it you mean all politicians.... it was both Labour and Tory that promised to honour the result.... of course they could both be lying.... they are politicians after all. 

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7 hours ago, geosname said:

So neither of the big two parties knew what it was when they vowed to honour the result...... proves my point about politicians

Politicians love mandates, but what they really mean is the things that they like they will do, the promises before the vote that they don't like they ignore or do the opposite. One way out of this sorry mess would be to have a mandatory referendum, proper threshold to give an emphatic decision  to leave. Otherwise the arguments will. carry  on for years. 

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18 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Of course leave voters created this problem, if they hadn't voted leave it wouldn't now be a problem.

Several solutions to Ireland?  What are they?

The EU are the ones insisting on a hard border?  Err, probably yes.  Is thre a hard border with Turkry? Belarus? Ukraine?  If we get a deal fine, but of course immigration is a red line because it was such a prominent factor in the campaign and to control immigration we need, wait for it.. hard borders.  But yeh, that's all the EUs fault, not the voters who lapped up Farages poster.

I'm sorry you feel that democracy is a problem.

It is the EU's fault to be fair. It is literally their laws that we have to follow.

35 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Oh, you actually believe your own stories... blimey. 

Can you actually answer his question?

You lot need to stop throwing around these baseless accusations. You cannot argue content and so you try to smear.

 

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39 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Also, Remain didnt need to think of Ireland and I suspect had they done the average leave voter wouldnt have cared as even now after years of being unable to solve the Irish border issue they pretend it's not an issue at all but it really is...

Remain told everyone how bad leaving would be, everyone got a leaflet explaining it but of course our charismatic (cough) Brexiteers Mr Johnson and Mr Farage called it project fear and folk lapped it up.

Your position has now become confused because I am sure you have previously argued the "democracy" charade yet now you seem to be advocating that we could have just ignored the vote.

I have said before that you seem to just enjoy finding arguments for the sake of it.  This latest ramble seems to prove that is the case, it's not clever despite what you might think, to adopt a position of opposition and claim to be simply posing questions.  

Blame....

Cameron started it.

Johnson and Farage ran with it and those who aligned themselves with these people voted for them.

So Cameron, Johnson, Farage (plus the whole campaign team) and those that voted created this mess...  and now it seems that not a single one of them has any solution or idea of how to solve the problem they caused apart from churning out rhetorical diatribe over and over and over and over again....

Opposition to what exactly?

If the remain campaign had identified the Irish boarder problem they would have used it...... wouldn't they?

They spent so much time telling everyone the brexit campaign as built on lies they failed to promote the benefits of remaining adequately. 

The only thing I'm really opposed to is elected members of all parties playing party politics and spending 3+ years leading the country down a dead end...... there were 2 possible exits but they blocked them both.... so is it the people's fault for voting them into office at a general election when the big 2 promised to honour the result of the referendum? 

I can understand the anger and frustration both sides feel....... but it's aimed at the wrong group of people..... the voters didn't cause this mess, no matter which option they chose..... 

I have not raged on about democracy..... but since you bring it up..... the process in the UK is that the people vote.... the option that gets the most votes wins.... end of...... the people trying to claim they are the representatives of democracy are the ones subverting it.... not the people who voted, whether they voted remain or leave.

You seem so obsessed with attacking one side you seem to be oblivious to the fact that's it's both sides..... both political sides are complicit in engineering the current situation.... we can't leave with a deal because it was rejected 3 times...... we can't leave with no deal because it's been blocked..... there is no 3rd option that honours the referendum result..... which Labour and Tories promised to do at the general election.

Would you prefer that RAMBLE in an attempt to explain...... or would you prefer me to simply say your talking crap?

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1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

Politicians love mandates, but what they really mean is the things that they like they will do, the promises before the vote that they don't like they ignore or do the opposite. One way out of this sorry mess would be to have a mandatory referendum, proper threshold to give an emphatic decision  to leave. Otherwise the arguments will. carry  on for years. 

You won't get any argument from me about politicians lying mate.

The problem with a threshold referendum is 2 fold.

1...  what's the default position if the threshold isn't reached?

I suspect pre 1st referendum which totally disregards the vote.... I can't see brexit voters sitting still for that.

2... if the threshold is reached there will be a call to have a 3rd....... by brexiteers if they lose..... and claims the threshold was to low if remainers lose.

So we go around again and again.

The only way I can see out of the mess.... is to create a bigger, if temporary, mess.

Honour the first referendum..... then call a second referendum  right after.

To much would depend on the EUs cooperation in giving us our existing seat at the table back.

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