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Brexit again...


Davebrad

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7 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Preference would be to remain, their core support is in the metro areas, who voted remain or very close to it. Deprived areas and the North will be promised infrastructure investment, and social spend over 5 years not just for a year as with Johnson. If no-deal has happened, stop US links and go back to our EU neighbours, which would be the new deal.

So grass roots and heartland has moved south?

What you seem to be suggesting is that Labour will offer people in different areas what they want to hear to win their votes..... pretty much the same as the Tories and others....... stop links with the USA because he doesn't like trump..... and if we are out of EU take us back in to get the votes of metro and southern areas while offering the deprived north a few quid to help they will never see.

What about the 10% share of company shares and the £500 bonus he talked about.... Will that benefit the deprived north?..... Will he restrict his infrastructure spending to the poor north?

That's the new deal???

What part of that will bridge the divide?..... bring the people together again?..... heal the wounds?

That's as bad as the Tory crap.

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11 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

I was canvassing for Labour on Saturday and spoke with a man who said he couldn't vote for us again. He was 72 and had always voted for us, even had a poster in his window at the 2017 election. That's been replaced by a Daily Express window sticker saying 'get us out' or something like that. Felt very sad for him really and regretted (to an extent) slagging leavers off as thick racists. Having said that, it astonishes me that people who are so at risk are prepared to accept a no-deal exit. Our constituency, being rural and relying on agriculture and manufacturing industry, is 13th most at risk in the entire country from a no-deal but he, and others, seem to be so fixated on getting out whatever the cost. Our constituency also only has a tory majority of about 600 so he must be aware that him withholding his vote could genuinely affect the result of any election, to the extent that it could hand the tories victory instead of the party he's voted for for the last 54 years. It also brought home to me what a difficult position Labour are in. For every voter like the gentleman I spoke to, there's a voter who refuses to accept anything other than a second referendum. What a sodding mess.

If Labour fight this battle along the lines of the 60s/70s campaigns..... rich v poor..... haves v have nots...... entitled v disenfranchised.... they will lose.

That's a different war of a different time..... as world war 1 generals found out in world war 2 when they used the same tactics against a mechanized army.

The stark facts are rich and poor support leave and remain..... old and young support leave and remain..... north and south support leave and remain...... most with a passion..... which ever way parties go they disenfranchise half the population.

People were offered a new campaign, a new war of sorts, a new enemy (bad analogy)....... Labour are trying to be Switzerland..... leavers and remainers don't like it and Labour will pay the price from both factions and the people in the middle.

I'm not shouting praises for the Tories or any other party...... for this system to work effectively.... to stop violent swings to the extreme right or left we have to have 2 (at least) strong parties to keep us in the centre ground where real people live.

Just my ramblings as usual, with plenty of ...........

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Back to brexit for a minute...... and middle ground compromises.

The tenets of leave are                      .........                     ........                                  Remain

1 Stop freedom of movement....... middle ground is restriction?                Keep

2 Unhindered free trade......             middle ground ?                                      EU trade

3 Sovereignty of UK law......             middle ground ?                                        ?

Anyone fill in the blanks?

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10 hours ago, geosname said:

Didn't jezza make a career out of voting against his party..... whatever happened to Alistair Campbell? 

Back benchers have the freedom to vote against their parties, but when the  Foreign Secretary votes against his  government that is a completely different scale

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10 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

I was canvassing for Labour on Saturday and spoke with a man who said he couldn't vote for us again. He was 72 and had always voted for us, even had a poster in his window at the 2017 election. That's been replaced by a Daily Express window sticker saying 'get us out' or something like that. Felt very sad for him really and regretted (to an extent) slagging leavers off as thick racists. Having said that, it astonishes me that people who are so at risk are prepared to accept a no-deal exit. Our constituency, being rural and relying on agriculture and manufacturing industry, is 13th most at risk in the entire country from a no-deal but he, and others, seem to be so fixated on getting out whatever the cost. Our constituency also only has a tory majority of about 600 so he must be aware that him withholding his vote could genuinely affect the result of any election, to the extent that it could hand the tories victory instead of the party he's voted for for the last 54 years. It also brought home to me what a difficult position Labour are in. For every voter like the gentleman I spoke to, there's a voter who refuses to accept anything other than a second referendum. What a sodding mess.

The so called Brexit Scam, shift the focus of an election onto facets of the EU instead of the economy as in the last 2 elections, now the argument will be a before or after Brexit election.

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11 hours ago, geosname said:

So grass roots and heartland has moved south?

What you seem to be suggesting is that Labour will offer people in different areas what they want to hear to win their votes..... pretty much the same as the Tories and others....... stop links with the USA because he doesn't like trump..... and if we are out of EU take us back in to get the votes of metro and southern areas while offering the deprived north a few quid to help they will never see.

What about the 10% share of company shares and the £500 bonus he talked about.... Will that benefit the deprived north?..... Will he restrict his infrastructure spending to the poor north?

That's the new deal???

What part of that will bridge the divide?..... bring the people together again?..... heal the wounds?

That's as bad as the Tory crap.

There are Metro areas in the Midlands and the North, obviously London is the largest, although a lot of the industries with decent pay and unions have gone. Trading with the US would mean adopting lower standards on imports but retaining EU standards as well for exports with no say in their changes.

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10 hours ago, geosname said:

That worked well in the euro elections

Phoney war, the regulars either stayed in their barracks or were stood down, only the irregulars went on parade. Hardly surprising since poor turnouts are the norm unlike national elections.

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6 hours ago, geosname said:

Back to brexit for a minute...... and middle ground compromises.

The tenets of leave are                      .........                     ........                                  Remain

1 Stop freedom of movement....... middle ground is restriction?                Keep

2 Unhindered free trade......             middle ground ?                                      EU trade

3 Sovereignty of UK law......             middle ground ?                                        ?

Anyone fill in the blanks?

Difficult to comment as I am a believer in if its not broke don't fix it, repair/improve parts to keep it going.

1. Movement to work, will the increased monitoring required be effective and economic (Residency etc is a national decision)

2. Free trade is only possible in trade groups, otherwise tariffs

3. Sovereignty is not at stake, rules of trade and employment is what it is really about.

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1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

Difficult to comment as I am a believer in if its not broke don't fix it, repair/improve parts to keep it going.

1. Movement to work, will the increased monitoring required be effective and economic (Residency etc is a national decision)

2. Free trade is only possible in trade groups, otherwise tariffs

3. Sovereignty is not at stake, rules of trade and employment is what it is really about.

So where in your post is the sacred middle ground compromise that enables both sides to agree.?

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18 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Wont happen.

It's similar to the utter garbage the media put out about him suspending parliament to ensure no deal. 

 

I think it's becoming more and more obvious that Johnson hasn't got a clue when it comes to renegotiating a deal and he's either willingly heading towards no deal and using every machination he can get his hands on to do just that, or he's incredibly and dangerously stupid and thinks bluster will win the day over the other member states.

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1 hour ago, geosname said:

As the Sunday Times revealed a week ago, you can get around the 2\3rds majority needed for an election in the Fixed Term Parliaments Act by passing a one line bill that says “notwithstanding the FTPA, we will have a general election on X date”

But parliament could block that bill.

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