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Brexit again...


Davebrad

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1 hour ago, ginge said:

Shutting down parliament just floors the Brexit argument about returning sovereignty and democracy. That wasn't on the table during the referendum. It's idiotic to think it's acceptable to destroy years of parliamentary democracy... and it will not be allowed. 

And I'd agree with you if Parliament was being shut down in order to stop it blocking no deal brexit. But it isn't.

They will be able to attempt to stop no deal. If you think 4-5 days will make that big of a difference then you should also think that it is achievable to do in the 3 weeks they'll have when Parliament is sitting between now and October 31st.

Secondly, many remainers have no legitimacy to talk about destroying democracy as many of them have advocated ignoring or overturning the largest single democratic vote in British history for the last few years. They called brexit voters stupid, racist, nazis and fascists to try and de-legitimise democracy. It's happened on this website many times sadly.

 

You cannot pick and choose when you are democratic. Especially when it would seem that you are only democratic when you're on the winning side.

 

Thirdly, Boris has not acted unlawfully and although it's arguable that he is stretching constitutional precedent, it's nothing hasn't done by Bercow for the benefit of the remain side more than once.

 

This really is a non issue.

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There is a double irony.

First the argument to have a second referendum...... "it's been 3 years, people can change their minds"...... it's been over 40 years since we joined and apparently they can't.

Second, and this really is a kick in the nuts for democracy...... self inflicted..... if no deal gets stopped we are left with the only deal on the table..... the one the "people in the know" democratically  rejected three times.

so we democratically voted to leave..... we democratically voted 3 tmes to reject a deal that kept us tied to the EU ..... we democratically stop a no deal...... which forces this democratic nation to accept a deal we democratically rejected.... and reject the democratic vote to leave.

To steal a phrase....... you couldn't make it up..... but then we don't have to..... we have the people in the know to do it for us.

The democratically elected Tories..... boo hisss..... want to leave on their terms.

The democratically elected Labour.... boo hisss......want to leave on their terms.

Democracy has lead us to the point of not leaving the EU.... boo hiss..... on their terms.

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A public vote does not trump parliament, particularly since the referendum was, strictly speaking, advisory.

The nature of a parliamentary democracy is that we elect MPs to do what they think is best. Of course they take soundings from the electorate [and so they should] but we don't live in a country where decisions are made by public vote - in this case based on a campaign in which the leave side was found guilty of irregularities, peddled a pack of lies, and had no sensible plan in place.

Churchill got it right when he said that the first priority of an MP should be to do what they think is best for the UK. Second, he should think of his constituents, of which he is a representative and not a delegate. And third, he should think about his party. These, he said, are at the heart of any healthy democracy. 

So you can now add Churchill to your list of public enemies, alongside Major, Hammond, Grieve, Heseltine, Brown, Blair, Lord Young and the rest. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, TheSage said:

A public vote does not trump parliament, particularly since the referendum was, strictly speaking, advisory.

The nature of a parliamentary democracy is that we elect MPs to do what they think is best. Of course they take soundings from the electorate [and so they should] but we don't live in a country where decisions are made by public vote - in this case based on a campaign in which the leave side was found guilty of irregularities, peddled a pack of lies, and had no sensible plan in place.

Churchill got it right when he said that the first priority of an MP should be to do what they think is best for the UK. Second, he should think of his constituents, of which he is a representative and not a delegate. And third, he should think about his party. These, he said, are at the heart of any healthy democracy. 

So you can now add Churchill to your list of public enemies, alongside Major, Hammond, Grieve, Heseltine, Brown, Blair, Lord Young and the rest. 

 

 

 

Given what Churchill said how could 400+ Mps vote to enact article 50 which made leaving without a deal the legal default position if no deal was reached, then vote down 3 times the only deal available?

They then had opportunity to offer and vote for alternatives and voted them down.

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Perhaps with hindsight a lot of things would have been done differently. With each week that passes the situation becomes more and more polarised and fractious. 

I think Article 50 was enacted to get the negotiations underway. And of course back then we were told how easy it would be and we'd hold all the cards. No deal might well have been the default option but in the 2 months of the official campaign it wasn't mentioned as a viable option by anyone, despite Rabb telling us it was until he was shown TV footage of his exact words! Believe you me, leavers reminded us constantly about how we could chose from Canada, Canada Plus, Norway, a Swiss arrangement, a bespoke deal. It's be dead easy and very simple. A great many people fell into that trap. 

The problem about blaming everyone in the Commons for this impasse is that the government holds all the cards and we never had any attempt at cross party support until the 11th hour. It was May's deal or nowt. That got torn apart by her own MPs in the ERG or we'd be out by now. A fact that Tory supporters conveniently forget. Any attempt by the opposition to get anything through was blocked by the government whipping MPs or naturally not wanting their opponents to take any credit for anything. So we had an impasse. All the government's fault. Who knows if the Labour Party or the Liberal party's negotiated deals would have worked or not? They were never given a chance. A great deal of this mess was caused by the ERG who have stuck their oar in, stopped any sensible deal from passing, and now they've got their way and put their man in power.

I do agree though generally that the Commons is split between hard core remainers, hard core no dealers and the majority in the middle. So finding a solution is difficult.

But Brexit is not a party issue. We should have had an open cross party group 3 years ago who came up with the best plan they could and asked voters if they wanted it or not in a second vote when everyone knew clearly what the consequences would be. Yes, I know we voted narrowly to leave but no-one knew at all what the terms would be and what exactly we were letting ourselves in for. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, TheSage said:

It's not the Tory Party of Heath, Major, Macmillan any longer. It's the Conservative and UKIP party now. 

The remaining one nation Tories should immediately resign the whip and be free to vote with their consciences. Then there would be an election and we'd see what the Nasty Party did then.

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9 minutes ago, Heatwave said:

The remaining one nation Tories should immediately resign the whip and be free to vote with their consciences. Then there would be an election and we'd see what the Nasty Party did then.

Can we go straight into an election or does there not have to be a 2 week period where an alternative govt could be formed. What happens if parliament does not vote by a 2/3 majority to have an election? 

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2 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Can we go straight into an election or does there no have to be a 2 week period where an alternative govt could be formed. What happens if parliament does not vote by a 2/3 majority to have an election?

If Boris calls an election it will happen

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An election has been on the cards for weeks. Johnson has found a magic money tree and has been promising the moon and stars to everyone. Money for this, that and the other has been thrown around like confetti with gay abandon, totally un-costed, so we know what an honest, generous, principled, caring man he is!!

But an election is not going to heal the wounds. It's not a party issue but a national one and one in which the only sensible outcome has to be a soft Brexit or a confirmatory vote. Pushing for an extreme No deal or alternatively standing on a No Brexit platform isn't, in my view, feasible or workable. It would not heal the divide but widen it. But what's in the best interests of the country isn't the same as what's in the best interests of BJ and the Cabinet.

 

 

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