Brexit again...

[For Us All]

3 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

That is exactly the point.  The majority in Parliament do not think that a NO DEAL is the best way to exit the EU.  This is because, as you say, they are better informed.

 

Why did they vote three times against May's withdrawal agreement then?

[TheSage]

We are going round in circles.

May's deal was exactly that - May's deal. She did not instigate cross party support or seek any way at all of getting a cross party deal together for almost three years. There are lots of ways of leaving as the leavers told us in the referendum debate  - Norway, Canada, bespoke deal, etc. Just because MPs voted down May's deal doesn't mean that they would not vote for another deal. In any case it was your friends in the ERG who voted against May's deal. It's their fault we are not yet out. So put the blame where it belongs.

MPs have a responsibility to make judgments on matters of national importance, doing what they think is in the best interests of the country. They know more about it than any of us (though sometimes you wonder) and that's the essence of what parliamentary sovereignty is all about. We elect our MPs to do what they think is best. They represent all their voters, remainers too, and do what they believe is right. That's how it works. That's what Fosse has been telling you all evening long.

Things change after 3-4 years. Circumstances alter. That's why I've said that adults should be able to change their minds like the Cabinet do on a daily basis! You don't like it, but that's what mature adults are entitled to do - give a second opinion or strep back from something if it isn't turning out as expected. You won't like that if you are an extreme no dealer. But it's a reasonable and logical position to adopt.

Dave, I'm much closer to popping my clogs than you might think and I'm certainly not a left wing member of momentum. I prefer to inhabit the middle ground if I can and I carry no cards for the extreme left or the extreme right (epitomised by Johnson and his plans to shut parliament). I was making the simple point that in the under 49 age bracket there was no majority to leave. Most leavers were over 50. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone's vote is equal. But as the years go by social scientists tell us that by around 2021 there will probably be a majority to rejoin the EU because 5-6 million older voters will have passed on and be replaced by younger people who could not vote in 2016 but can and will in the near future. 

I do understand why people voted out. The world is changing and we don't necessarily like what we see in and around our neighbourhood. Me neither. But I put the blame on austerity and successive governments for neglecting voters. You put it on the EU. I think it's been wonderful for us all to live, work, study or retire anywhere we like within the EU, freely and cheaply. I would want my family members to be able to do that. It encourages better understanding between us all and mixing and travelling together has contributed greatly towards peace in Europe. I think I said before, my father was delighted when we joined the EU as he always thought it was a sensible idea to break down barriers and co-operate and work together. He was in the army, at Dunkirk and Salerno and N Africa. He would be mortified if he thought we were putting up barriers and talking about our closest friends and allies in the EU as if they were dirt. It isn't perfect, but nothing is.

[Regal Beagle]

Young people don't vote though.

Also there will be 6-7 million new "older" folk and older folk are more likely to vote for brexit.

So actually social scientists are saying that there will be a bigger majority for brexit.

We can all make stuff up.

[For Us All]

14 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Just go and watch any Jacob Rees Mogg interview today, he'll educate you on what is going on and why this is the latest in remainer lies which have one goal and that is to overturn the democratic will of the people.

Parliament was going to be in recess anyway. It shuts down for 3-4 weeks every year in mid september-october for the conference season. This has happened every year for the last 80 years.

This was being asked for by leading labour party members weeks ago. They actually wanted the parliamentary session to end.

I'll spell out why this is a big fuss - A few months ago, bitter remainer media outlets started publishing the lie that Boris Johnson may, should be become PM, close down parliament for months so that it would be unable to stop a no deal brexit.

That has not happened. In fact, Parliament will only miss out on around 4-5 days maximum over what they were scheduled to miss anyway.

But now he has actually prorouged parliament the LIARS have whipped up the previously created frenzy even though he is clearly not doing it to block parliament (if he was, he'd have suspended it from now until October, not from mid-september).

 

Can we all stop pretending that remainers are happy to compromise with leaving with a deal...They want to remain or they want to "leave" but have all the trimmings of an EU state(= remain).

Can we all stop pretending to care about democracy and the constitution when it has only been me and other brexiters in this thread defending democracy and the constitution for the last 3 years?

 

No one believes a word any of you say. You say something over and over for 3 years and then drop it and say the opposite in an instant when it suits you. It really is laughable.

Parliament works for us. The Government works for us. We told them we want to leave the EU. We need to leave the EU.

Everything else is a manufactured LIE designed to avoid that outcome. There really is no denying it. The backstop, hard or soft, deal or no deal, prorouging parliament...They're all remainer lies.

And you should be proud by the way, you've become the latest in a long line of remainers on this website who has felt the need to resort to name calling and abuse.

The usual suspects must be on holiday?

[For Us All]

11 hours ago, geosname said:

That's the theory of the function of the opposition.... it practice its to bring the government down and take over.

I see the Momentum rabble are planning to gather outside JRM's family home today and others in the Labour party are suggesting civil unrest.

Is this what it's come to?

 

 

[geosname]

11 minutes ago, For Us All said:

I see the Momentum rabble are planning to gather outside JRM's family home today and others in the Labour party are suggesting civil unrest.

Is this what it's come to?

 

 

Labour have a difficult choice.... go full on remain to try to win an election..... or try to build a coalition with the libs, who will go remain, and the SNP who will want independence..... both will want seats at the table which will cost Labour dearly when trying to implement policies.

I suspect both will fail..... not because I want the Tories to win.

The elephant in the room is the brexit party..... if Boris does a deal with Nige it could be a bloodbath..... that's the obvious move if Boris wants to win..... but it won't be cheap.

That's one of the reasons I think Boris is shutting parliament....... to get his election wagon rolling by announcing what he intends to do for the people.... I doubt it's his only reason.

[geosname]

11 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Anybody else on OVF getting adverts from Johnson to join him or is it because I am in a safe blue seat.

Your a secret squirrel....... sorry tory

[Jacko51]

34 minutes ago, For Us All said:

I see the Momentum rabble are planning to gather outside JRM's family home

 

 

Perhaps, like Dave, they are annoyed that JRM went against the wishes of his constituents, a majority of whom voted to remain???  Just a thought.

[Jacko51]

Can anyone confirm that Boris Johnson is running the country because I see a lot of evidence suggesting it is the unelected Dominic Cummings?

[Fosse69]

1 minute ago, geosname said:

Your a secret squirrel....... sorry tory

No, just in a seat where votes don't matter, average majority 20k. My forecast for the Labour election theme would be no third austerity government and a referendum for the peoples will to be confirmed..

[Fosse69]

6 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Can anyone confirm that Boris Johnson is running the country because I see a lot of evidence suggesting it is the unelected Dominic Cummings?

It is the system he admired when a reporter in the EU.

[TheSage]

3 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

We can all make stuff up.

You better than the rest of us.

Johnson and his mates are serial liars. The type of people you say you abhor. I don't think they know the difference any more between a lie and the truth. They need to be held to account. Closing Parliament for nearly 5 weeks is an appalling attack on our parliamentary sovereignty and deliberately aimed to stifle debate and undermine MPs rights to debate and discuss government business. It really doesn't matter whose side you are on. Everyone should be outraged by this course of action. 

They haven't voted on a recess yet. Normally the closure is for 3-4 days not 5 weeks. This is a very important matter and the Commons should be sitting.

It's no longer the Conservative and Unionist Party but the Conservative and UKIP Party, going further and further towards the right, with a propaganda machine that would be the envy of a banana republic. 

If JRM is so keen on representing his constituents he should be on the streets as well. They voted to remain. Square that circle.

 

[Davebrad]

12 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

 

MPs are representatives in a representative parliament, they are not delegates of their constituents.

surely that means they are elected to represent the views and aspirations of the people of their constituency... not crumble under party whips.

[geosname]

1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

No, just in a seat where votes don't matter, average majority 20k. My forecast for the Labour election theme would be no third austerity government and a referendum for the peoples will to be confirmed..

With groups offering to remain or leave as a definite a second referendum will flatline

[geosname]

1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

No, just in a seat where votes don't matter, average majority 20k. My forecast for the Labour election theme would be no third austerity government and a referendum for the peoples will to be confirmed..

Votes always matter mate, whether you win or lose you get your say...... and it's about the only say you get.