Brexit again...

[Jacko51]

I stand by it if we LEAVE.

 

My posts are absolutely brilliant in that thread (if i may sat so) and show that it's not brexiters that keep changing their mind.

 

You said within two years, so by June 2018. Although you appear to have changed your mind!!

[TheSage]

To be a bit more serious than my previous post, I too would have preferred to remain as for me the economic and social advantages of the last 50 years that it has given my family overrides any of its perceived faults.

However, I can live with the vote and can go along with it as long as its implemented in a sensible way.

 

That said, I see no reason why we can't have a second vote because democracy isn't static and things change in the 3 years since we had the last one. May had another election. We have had elections quite often within 3 years of the last one so I don't get this idea that another vote is anti-democratic. Surely it's the opposite of that - the very essence of what mature people do because people do change their minds.

The folk who want to leave of course don't want another vote in case they lose.

But I'd half expect the result to be the same again, in all honesty, because I think a lot of people feel let down.

 

May has got a lot of praise for her stance and it was a poisoned chalice (of her own choosing mind) but she has been very stubborn and very unwilling to allow the Commons to involve itself in the process. It isn't a party issue but a country wide issue and she really ought to have engaged with everyone in Parliament and not continually brought back her deal and whipped her MPs to tow the line. She has been a complete intransigent buffoon.

 

But so have the extreme right who could have had a Soft Brexit by now. And so has Corbyn who has played party politics and shown zero leadership qualities throughout - because he's a leaver but doesn't want to upset half his party/voters who are remainers.

 

The real problem I think is that it hasn't proved easy to extricate ourselves from 50 years membership. All this talk from Johnson et al about it being a piece of cake and it would be simple has proven to be rubbish. The same about our ability to sign other deals. Fox has failed to do that.

So all sensible MPs have rebelled against a silly No Deal and rightly do not want to take a huge risk over our economy and our future. We have to have a deal in place and one that respects the 48% who didn't win.

 

What happens now who knows? I always knew the Commons was packed with self interested shysters who only care for themselves and the last 3 years has simply convinced me of that. I'm minded not to vote again, for anything. And I'm embarrassed to be associated with the whole lot of them.

 

Above all, as you can tell by the tone of some posters on here, it has created an enormous division between both sides and the anger and frustration has mounted. Whatever happens this wrangling will go on and on for years and be very hard to heal.

 

I have never subscribed to referendums because our professional politicians are paid to do the job for us. They should know more about these things and have more time to devote to it. I still think it was a mistake by Cameron who immediately rode off into the sunset and left us with this mess. It would have been better to have more strongly argued our case from within and kept hold of the enormous benefits the EU has given us, not withstanding its faults.

 

Perhaps the biggest reason why people voted leave was immigration and free movement of people (though few will admit it) and yet immigration from outside the EU has risen inexorably in the last few years when we have the ability to stop it. It makes no sense at all. We haven't been doing what a lot of leavers want.

 

No doubt this long thread will be still be going in 5 years time when we are still arguing back and forth and no closer to healing the wounds.

 

It's high time, I think, that we seriously considered a system of PR and built a democratic chamber that fully reflects the wishes of the people and forces MPs to work more closely together, raising the abysmal level of debates as well as bringing a measure of maturity to the proceedings. Our confrontational two party system perpetuates infantile preening and posturing and instead of honesty and integrity 640/650 MPs simply tow the party line and don't tell the truth. I'm sick and tired of hearing all the usual platitudes, claptrap and sound bites, day after day.

 

Sorry. I didn't realise I'd written so much!

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

So the Tory brexiteers voting against their leaders deal are traitors too?

 

It’s not about them voting against their leaders whether they are blue or red or even pink, it’s about them voting against the will of the people.

[Andyregs]

It’s not about them voting against their leaders whether they are blue or red or even pink' date=' it’s about them voting against the will of the people.[/quote']

 

You always try to move the conversation away from the point made.

I’ll rephrase it just for you (even though my post wasn’t aimed at you). Are the Tory brexiteers who voted against the brexit deal traitors?

[Fosse69]

You always try to move the conversation away from the point made.

I’ll rephrase it just for you (even though my post wasn’t aimed at you). Are the Tory brexiteers who voted against the brexit deal traitors?

How do May and Corbyn vote? They both represent Remain seats.

[whotobeakiller]

So the Tory brexiteers voting against their leaders deal are traitors too?

 

It depends what they disagree with. To deny Brexit totally-traitors

 

To kick the can down the road..constantly and prevent Brexit.... traitors

 

To deny the deal made by Theresa May as it denies the principles that people voted leave in the first place ...Not traitors

 

To deny the deal even though they deny No deal and Brexit full stop...traitors

 

To deny the deal and try to push for Article 50 extensions and deny a non deal...traitors

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

You always try to move the conversation away from the point made.

I’ll rephrase it just for you (even though my post wasn’t aimed at you). Are the Tory brexiteers who voted against the brexit deal traitors?

 

To be clear I wanted to remain as my business interests dramatically favour such a view but the deal May initially put on the table was ridiculous. So no they nor the Labour MP’s weren’t traitors then as they wanted better for the country. Anyone that voted against no deal is clearly a traitor to the will of the people, if they were blue they were traitors and if they were red they were traitors.

 

This isn’t about the colour of your team, this is about the greater good and fulfilling the wishes of the majority.

 

I’d have preferred the vote never happened back in 2016 to be honest and both sides fought dirty campaigns, the promise of reduced non-EU immigration being the biggest joke going which the masses fell for but we live in a democracy and we can’t simply keep having a vote after a vote until we get the result we want, that would make us the SNP.

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

It depends what they disagree with. To deny Brexit totally-traitors

 

To kick the can down the road..constantly and prevent Brexit.... traitors

 

To deny the deal made by Theresa May as it denies the principles that people voted leave in the first place ...Not traitors

 

To deny the deal even though they deny No deal and Brexit full stop...traitors

 

To deny the deal and try to push for Article 50 extensions and deny a non deal...traitors

 

Spot on.

[Paul6754]

Teresa May can't ever take a No Deal Brexit off the table as if she does it stops being negotiation and becomes persuasion and she''s not gonna get very far trying to persuade the EU to accept a new deal.

[Jacko51]

How do May and Corbyn vote? They both represent Remain seats.

 

So does Rees-Mogg.

[Fosse69]

Teresa May can't ever take a No Deal Brexit off the table as if she does it stops being negotiation and becomes persuasion and she''s not gonna get very far trying to persuade the EU to accept a new deal.

Up to somebody else to put another deal forward.

[Regal Beagle]

You said within two years, so by June 2018. Although you appear to have changed your mind!!

 

Only if you choose to deliberately misinterpret my post.

 

I was clearly talking about the results of brexit not the results of remaining after spending nearly 3 years promising brexit.

[Regal Beagle]

Are you actually suggesting this is labours fault?

conservatives ran with a referendum they didn’t want.

Conservatives led the leave campaign and defeated their own leader.

Conservatives negotiated to where we are now.

Nkw we haven’t got a pie in the sky deal it’s all labours fault lol.

 

The only surprise with all this is that anyone is surprised that May hasn’t been able to negotiate the fairytale that many voted for.

They are not blameless.

 

The Tories have ****** it up but they've had no opposition to keep them on track.

 

A small but significant share of the blame in my opinion.

[Andyregs]

They are not blameless.

 

The Tories have ****** it up but they've had no opposition to keep them on track.

 

A small but significant share of the blame in my opinion.

 

Fair. Though Many are still arguing from the standpoint that a good deal was an opportunity missed, though they can’t actually say what it is (in the real world). I’m no fan of may or the Tories, but she had a poisoned chalice from the start. There was no way to achieve the brexit that the people who voted for it wanted, because it wasn’t possible. I always said that labour should just let the tories implode in the mess of their own making. There was no good outcome. Ive said from the start, it was a bad deal or a no deal. Nothing that has happened has changed that view.

[Andyregs]

Teresa May can't ever take a No Deal Brexit off the table as if she does it stops being negotiation and becomes persuasion and she''s not gonna get very far trying to persuade the EU to accept a new deal.

 

Despite the vote I can’t see how no deal is actually off the table, as much as I want it to be. Surely it’s the default option if they keep disagreeing until the times up.