onevalefan.co.uk Present Past Specials About Forum
Jump to content
onevalefan.co.uk forum

Advert


Advert


Hunt wants to sneak another one through.


PVTony

Recommended Posts

Never voted conservative in my life but I understand that successful business creates wealth, jobs and prosperity and drives creativity and invention which benefits everyone in the world. Too much government regulation creates stagnant economies, misery and lack of opportunity. Compare Western Europe with Eastern Europe under the Russians.

 

People in East Germany were far better off than many in Spain, Portugal, Greece at the time with fixed low rents, guaranteed employment, some civil liberties but no choice in newspaper or TV. Most of those who wanted to get to the west either had family there or wanted to have their education and training paid for by the DDR but then earn higher salaries as doctors etc in west Germany.

Cuba, despite being attacked, blockaded, sanctioned and refused normal trade by the USA has one of the very best healthcare systems in the world, and provided far more help initially than the USA did in the west African Ebola crisis.

Things are not always so clear cut, there are other measures of civilised behaviour than monetary gain. Not everyone has profiteering and making money at the expense of others as their main goal in life.

 

You mean like in Russia. Successful enterprise creates money for the under privileged in society, it just needs to be shared more equally

Agreed. I have to say though Paul that as someone who is obviously well educated and very intelligent, you are very cynical about anything even slightly socialist but so trusting on things like the TTIP and food safety, there is very strong concern (and that is putting it mildly) about some of the things you would be making the rst of us buy into - like chlorinated chicken and GMO foods. Nobody is saying you shouldn't eat them if you want, but what you are proposing, what TTIP means, is that ALL of us will have to - and have no choice.

There are many examples of where 'if its good for big business, its a good thing' is just not true, and lots of them are in the realm of public safety and health or environment - oil spills, look at BP off the coast of the US, just one tiny example..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Advert

 

You mean like in Russia. Successful enterprise creates money for the under privileged in society, it just needs to be shared more equally.

 

Take away democracy then you take away workers rights and workers ability to get paid a proper wage. You also take away consumer rights by being in TTIP as the companies will dictate what rights anybody can have whether it be buying off those companies or taking action in respect products that these companies make.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in East Germany were far better off than many in Spain, Portugal, Greece at the time with fixed low rents, guaranteed employment, some civil liberties but no choice in newspaper or TV. Most of those who wanted to get to the west either had family there or wanted to have their education and training paid for by the DDR but then earn higher salaries as doctors etc in west Germany.

The majority of people in East German had no freedom, no choice, no money and little food and were controlled by State and Stasi, the only people with none of that were the E German Politicians. It could only be someone who's lived in the west that could claim life in Eastern Europe under the Russian's was better. It's total fallacy that the only people who wanted to escape from E Germany were those that had family etc in the west, why was a wall built, answer, 'cause many if not most would have fled to the west and not only East Germans.

 

Cuba, despite being attacked, blockaded, sanctioned and refused normal trade by the USA has one of the very best healthcare systems in the world, and provided far more help initially than the USA did in the west African Ebola crisis.

 

Cuba does train a disproportionate number of doctors at the expense of many other national needs eg infrastructure and a decent living wage, the country is rife with prostitution. It has a good healthcare system but only because it can import techniques and drugs developed by creativity and invention driven by capitalism in the west, doctor's are generally rendered useless without the availability of medicines and anaesthetics. The number of effective medicines discovered and developed in the communist world is zero, ask yourself why? and that includes Russia which has a tremendous science base.

 

Things are not always so clear cut, there are other measures of civilised behaviour than monetary gain. Not everyone has profiteering and making money at the expense of others as their main goal in life.

 

I have never posted that monetary gain is the the only measure of civilized behavior but if there is one thing that is clear cut from the last 100 years it is that communism and far left politics are a dead end street and lead to poverty, misery and worse.

 

I have to say though Paul that as someone who is obviously well educated and very intelligent, you are very cynical about anything even slightly socialist but so trusting on things like the TTIP and food safety, there is very strong concern (and that is putting it mildly) about some of the things you would be making the rst of us buy into - like chlorinated chicken and GMO foods. Nobody is saying you shouldn't eat them if you want, but what you are proposing, what TTIP means, is that ALL of us will have to - and have no choice.

There are many examples of where 'if its good for big business, its a good thing' is just not true, and lots of them are in the realm of public safety and health or environment - oil spills, look at BP off the coast of the US, just one tiny example..

 

I am not cynical about anything even slightly socialist, in fact I'm center left in my views but realize that to have social medicine and welfare someone has to pay for it and that ain't going to be anything 100% government driven.

 

TTIP is good for trade, trade is what drives the wheels hence I'm in favor. As for food safety, too many people are taken in by the scaremongers, franken foods, chlorinated chicken etc, emotive phrases. For those of us who live in the west there will always be a choice of non-GMO and GMO foods a plenty, for those living in less affluent countries GMO foods are the way forward to feed people, decrease hunger and in some cases treat disease, as far as I'm aware there have been no instances of toxicity of GMO foods cf to non-GMO in the general population. As for chlorinated chicken it's too daft a phrase to even comment on, you do realize that tap water in the UK contains minute levels of "chlorine" to reduce the quantity of harmful bacteria so it can be piped to homes and drunk safely, do you want this "chlorine" removed resulting in cholera, dysentry and going to the well to get water in the UK.

 

There are many more example where if it's good for big business it's good for the country and the world benefits, when a government is faced with a choice of politics or economics the later usually holds sway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take away democracy then you take away workers rights and workers ability to get paid a proper wage. You also take away consumer rights by being in TTIP as the companies will dictate what rights anybody can have whether it be buying off those companies or taking action in respect products that these companies make.

 

Who's posted about taking away democracy, TTIP is about creating free trade between Europe and the USA, I believe it was a European initiatve. TTIP is about creating multi lateral economic growth, hence jobs and salaries so people can feed their families, have opportunity and choice. Companies don't dictate, customers and competition do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The majority of people in East German had no freedom, no choice, no money and little food and were controlled by State and Stasi, the only people with none of that were the E German Politicians. It could only be someone who's lived in the west that could claim life in Eastern Europe under the Russian's was better. It's total fallacy that the only people who wanted to escape from E Germany were those that had family etc in the west, why was a wall built, answer, 'cause many if not most would have fled to the west and not only East Germans.

 

Did you ever visit East Germany ? I did, a dozen times - mainly because a good friend I used to work with went to live in West berlin in the mid-1970s, stayed and married and raised a family there, and I went to (West)Berlin many times to visit as it was a place with endless history and fascinations. One of which was the ability to cross into East Berlin, an experience which made me interested in seeing more.

 

So the next time I was going to West Berlin, I broke the journey in East GermanY (Magdeburg) - on my own, an act which some people I knew described as madness. My experience - with no contact with any official sources, just meeting people - was a well fed, generally fairly happy city where the people I met were reasonably happy with their lot - many had cars, all had televisions, no shops had shortages, prices were tiny and fixed even compared to wages, sports and health facilities were superb.

 

Yes, the telephone in my hotel did ring twice in the night, and I am sure I was 'kept an eye on' but other than having the car searched fairly carefully (but very politely) on the way into the DDR then out again at the West berlin border, I cant say anything bothered or restricted me.

 

I also went for drives into the Harz mountains, went into fantastic little cafes and visited the medieval town of Wernigerode, where there was also no shortage of anything and everyone went about their business in a reasonable way.

 

People I met did say they wish they could get Western goods, particularly cigarettes and some alcoholic products and of course fashionable items and 'pop culture' goods, but the visit and subsequent ones and odd trips across into East Berlin convinced me that life was far from miserable, not really any worse than life in an English northern town in the late 1970s except for 'free press' etc.

 

Since re-unification there have been several polls where large numbers of people have wished the event had not happened, the West Germans and Americans spent huge amounts - billions of dollars - undermining the East german economy and on propaganda to undermine that state. One example was that the 2 currencies were officially 1:1 exchange rate yet you could buy East German marks in West Berlin BANKS - not on street corners - at a rate of 4 for 1 and many people smuggled them in and this led to economic problems.

 

Cuba does train a disproportionate number of doctors at the expense of many other national needs eg infrastructure and a decent living wage, the country is rife with prostitution. It has a good healthcare system but only because it can import techniques and drugs developed by creativity and invention driven by capitalism in the west, doctor's are generally rendered useless without the availability of medicines and anaesthetics. The number of effective medicines discovered and developed in the communist world is zero, ask yourself why? and that includes Russia which has a tremendous science base.

 

Prostitution in Cuba is mainly only found in Havana, and is at a far lower rate than in most large US cities, a fact borne out by STD and AIDS rates in Cuba which are far lower than most countries if not all, in Latin America and certainly than in the US. How can Cuba import medical stuff from the US? The country is far from perfect but has given priority to health and has done extremely well when the most powerful bully in eternity has been trying to crush it for 50 years.

 

I have never posted that monetary gain is the the only measure of civilized behavior but if there is one thing that is clear cut from the last 100 years it is that communism and far left politics are a dead end street and lead to poverty, misery and worse.

 

It didn't in Cuba and East Germany, and it may well not if liberalised to 'Gorbachov'-type levels but not undermined by the US destabalising and threatening it so that so much had to be spent to defend against Reagan for example.

 

I am not cynical about anything even slightly socialist, in fact I'm center left in my views but realize that to have social medicine and welfare someone has to pay for it and that ain't going to be anything 100% government driven.

 

TTIP is good for trade, trade is what drives the wheels hence I'm in favor. As for food safety, too many people are taken in by the scaremongers, franken foods, chlorinated chicken etc, emotive phrases. For those of us who live in the west there will always be a choice of non-GMO and GMO foods a plenty, for those living in less affluent countries GMO foods are the way forward to feed people, decrease hunger and in some cases treat disease, as far as I'm aware there have been no instances of toxicity of GMO foods cf to non-GMO in the general population. As for chlorinated chicken it's too daft a phrase to even comment on, you do realize that tap water in the UK contains minute levels of "chlorine" to reduce the quantity of harmful bacteria so it can be piped to homes and drunk safely, do you want this "chlorine" removed resulting in cholera, dysentry and going to the well to get water in the UK.

 

I disagree with your views which are unfortunately coming across as smug and dangerous - there are dozens of studies that suggest there may be serious problems with GMO foods and chlorinated meat. The tap water argument does not hold up as the levels are minuscule in tap water- one could say arsenic is ok because it exists in apple pips - people wont be tricked by this deception of scale for ever.

 

You say there will always be choice of GMO or not- HOW SO ? when part of TTIP is to remove labelling which tells us which foods contain it - and as you are probably well aware, the general public is not as aware as it should be on food buying and will not check labels even if there is a choice.

 

People will believe that if it is on sale it is safe, and that just isn't true - many items are banned in Europe but allowed in the US, like additives, E numbers and synthetic chemicals in food. We don't want these at any price.

 

 

There are many more example where if it's good for big business it's good for the country and the world benefits, when a government is faced with a choice of politics or economics the later usually holds sway.

 

There are some, but this does not mean all. You cant trust every large company, look at Monsanto who are so profit-driven that they are willing to risk public health with products like Roundup which has been so heavily linked to cancer that it is a serious danger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some, but this does not mean all. You cant trust every large company, look at Monsanto who are so profit-driven that they are willing to risk public health with products like Roundup which has been so heavily linked to cancer that it is a serious danger.

 

It is very different visiting a place for a few days at a time than having to live there year on year especially under such an oppressive regime. Yes I visited Potsdam just after the wall came down and it was in dire need of renovation and many of the people appeared repressed. Apparently it's now a thriving city after reunification and the much needed investment.

 

The amount of chlorine in water used to wash chicken is also minute as it's such an efficient bactericidal agent and inexpensive to boot.

 

Save the debate on GMO foods to a later date but first understand what a GMO food is, then digest both sides of the discussion not just the side that fits your politics and thyen think about people in the world who are much less fortunate than us who will benefit from such food.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you not read all of the posts Kevin?

It's about hunt wanting to quietly push a motion through that will lead to a possble sell out of the NHS.

 

Yes but your original post didnt say what the bill actually said and you admitted, when asked, that you didnt know but you wanted people to sign the petition. At least find out what you are protesting about before you actually sign a petition FGS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
I don't think that you realize the dangers of the TTIP agreement being implemented. It will be good for the big businesses, especially the ones in U.S.A.

If any goverment under this agreement should pass any laws or regulations that will have a detrimental effect upon their company profits they can take the said governments to court.

 

and would then have to win the court case..you missed that important part

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thought that it was obvious that all court cases have to be won.

 

The point is pretty simple..why be so 'scared' of a law and make such a big thing of it when they will still have to win the case...that's the important aspect, not the existance of the law..simply pointing out the existence of a law is scaremongering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point is pretty simple..why be so 'scared' of a law and make such a big thing of it when they will still have to win the case...that's the important aspect, not the existance of the law..simply pointing out the existence of a law is scaremongering.

 

Is it possible for a small business owner such as a one man retailer to take the goverment to court?

 

Politicians bow down to large corporate concerns which are powerful and to some extent run the country, e.g. the Rothchilds own the bank of England which now set the interest rates. Some M.P's have shares in mega companies and would also, I feel sure obtain shares in the U.S. mega companies, if they don't already have them. Such companies would merge and take over smaller companies and become more powerful and influence politiicians.

Eventually the NHS would undoubtably become privately owned.

The USA would become ever more powerful and tighten it's grip over U.K politicians and influence them just like Obama influences Cameron.

The TTIP would be great for large corporations that is why they want it so badly,but not for the general population where their interest's and welfare are rock bottom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it possible for a small business owner such as a one man retailer to take the goverment to court?

 

I believe so yes.depends on the particular issue

 

Politicians bow down to large corporate concerns

 

Indeed some/many do...obviously not all do

 

which are powerful and to some extent run the country, e.g. the Rothchilds own the bank of England

 

source?

 

Some M.P's have shares in mega companies

 

I am sure tthey do

 

and would also, I feel sure obtain shares in the U.S. mega companies, if they don't already have them.

 

You are almost certainly correct

 

 

Such companies would merge and take over smaller companies and become more powerful and influence politiicians.

 

Possiby..altough there are controls in place that would remain in place regarding mergers and acquisitions

 

 

Eventually the NHS would undoubtably become privately owned.

 

What do you mean 'privately owned? Can you be specific?

 

 

The USA would become ever more powerful and tighten it's grip over U.K politicians and influence them just like Obama influences Cameron.

 

Well of course Obama influences Cameron.. I can' imagine a scenario when the US president does not infuence the UK PM.Of course agreemets such as this allow the Uk more influence too.it's two way

 

The TTIP would be great for large corporations

 

I don't disagree...not necessarily/intrinsically a bad thing

 

that is why they want it so badly,but not for the general population where their interest's and welfare are rock bottom.

 

Of course they want it..t's their job to do what is right for the organization and individuals, pension funds and so on that own the orgasnisation..as wellas empoyees. It does not automatically follow that good for big business is bad for the general population.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Reporting Posts and other information

    Rules - This forum is moderated but the admin team don't read everything. Don't assume we'll spot rule breaking and alert us by reporting content. Logged in users can hover over the post and click the orange button. Guests can contact us here. If you don't get on with another user you can "ignore" them. Click this link, type in their username and click save. Please check with the admin team if you wish to sell/auction any items. We're happy to support good causes but check first.

    Use - This forum may not be suitable for all as it may contain words or phrases not considered appropriate for some. You are personally responsible and potentially liable for the contents of your posting and could face legal action should it contain content of a defamatory or other illegal nature. Every message posted leaves a traceable IP number. Please do not reveal any personal information about yourself or anyone else (for example: phone number, address or email address). This forum is not in any way affiliated with Port Vale FC. OVF reserve the right to edit, delete, move or close any thread for any reason. If you spot an offensive post please report it to the admin team (instructions are above).

    Adverts - This site occasionally a) has adverts and sponsored features about gambling b) accepts sponsored posts from third parties. If you require help and advice on gambling read these links: Information on protecting young people | Addiction help from gambleaware.co.uk
  • Friends of OVF

×
×
  • Create New...