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Guitar Ray
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Posts posted by Guitar Ray
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What’s to be gained from dragging this old chestnut up? Whatever the circumstances behind CG leaving he isn’t the reason we’ve been relegated.
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1 hour ago, Valiiant said:
Having the wool pulled over your eyes is one thing. People make mistakes. But standing by that person to save face, further damaging the season, for as long as she did, while also trying to justify her decisions and tell everyone else just how very wrong they were, is something else entirely.
Maybe you’re standing by that person with the wool still firmly pulled over your eyes though.
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We’ll renew as normal the only question was in which stand. I did think about moving from the Hamil but we were talking about it again last night at the game and the consensus in our small group was to give it another season.
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1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:
Relegation is part of football, setbacks are part of business, learn from it and move on.
Very easy to say, but I just repeated your sentence and found my fist had punched a hole in a nearby stud wall. I’ll be needing some patch plaster before I can learn from it and move on. 😖
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26 minutes ago, Smallthorne clampet said:
For me , owners should stay in the background , you never hear anything from Kevin . All things should come from the CEO , because that is his job - to run the football club .
Spot on, but quite frankly I’m not arsed much at all about communication, just give me the stuff I need to know and beyond that a winning team to talk about. A lot of the stuff the club have come out with has just been used as a stick to beat them with so I don’t know why they bother. Basically a lot of folk these days want to know it all so they can talk about 💩 on social media all day long. Anyway, here’s me talking more 💩
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20 hours ago, mr1876 said:
I think your positive bias towards Clarke has blinkered your view to as Crosby was in charge for a lot of promotion season and the best run of form that season to so don't give Clarke all the credit for promotion because it wasn't all him
Just to correct you, I have no positive bias towards Clarke and I think if you care to read back through various topics my comments would always acknowledge the fact that Crosby played a big part in our promotion. People seem to forget that the manager isn’t a one man band. When Clarke was in charge he had a team of staff along side him, Crosby being one member of that team. Moving along, I also don’t think Crosby was as bad a manager as many are making out. My own feelings being that he was hamstrung by recruitment and having to buy in to the football philosophy of his boss, David Flitcroft. I’ve said on several occasions that if we add a couple of capable strikers to our current, admittedly poor, squad, Crosby would’ve had enough about him to guide the side to safety, albeit probably not challenge for the play offs.
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On 14/04/2024 at 13:31, Rampant Zebra said:
I wasn't even aware of Clarke other than seeing him play for us for about 5 minutes until it was rumoured that he was going to be our manager. I asked someone who knew him what he thought and he wasn't very complimentary. I also read into his history at various clubs on the internet and concluded that he is an average manager who has a massive opinion of himself, a massive chip on his shoulder about the fact that he didn't do as well as a footballer as he thought he should and an inability to recognise his own failings. Cheltenham Town fans seem divided on his merits too incidentally. . I wanted him to be a fantastic manager and propel us to greater success on the pitch but that didn't happen.
Quite clearly these are subjective views, personal opinions. Taken at face value his CV suggests he’s a good manager at league 2 level.
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1 minute ago, Jim Gammon said:
Never understood why they don’t just sell oatcakes instead of pies. Mind…they need to prep em quicker
Oatcakes are available in the fanzone.
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11 minutes ago, philpvfc said:
Agree, but Carol should take some blame, Flitcroft was possibly right, she may well need a DOF, but she should have taken his advice and then gone through a process of getting the best DOF available. Crosby should not have been given the job without a thorough recruitment process and if still the best man available then fair enough. The same applies when Moore got the job, I can’t but help feel he got the job on the back end of the supporters vote where the biggest majority were calling for him. She must have experience of recruiting, you don’t have a business the size of hers without having a good recruitment policy. It seems that anyone who can win her over gets the job.
Nobody is saying the owners are beyond criticism, far from it. No escaping the fact though that the DoF should shoulder the bulk of the blame for our current situation.
Without knowing the full facts it appears that when discussing the managers position with Flitcroft the DoF pathway came up and obviously he sold himself to Carol that he was the best available candidate and so ends up with that job on a part-time basis. I think it’s on record he said he wasn’t interested in the full time managers job due to business commitments. So he’s effectively “advised” Carol into giving him the DoF job which eventually ends up being full time anyway.
In terms of the managerial recruitment then that’s on Flitcroft, as the man responsible for all things football. He gets the plaudits for appointing Clarke, equally should be castigated when Crosby fails, although for me a massive part of that failure was the weaknesses in the squad and recruitment based around playing a rigid style, the jury is out on Moore until he’s working with his own squad of players. It’s the DoF’s job to recruit the manager and Carol has 2 choices, trust her DoF or ignore him and go her own way, which is hint going to happen.
Sadly, we’re having a conversation which would’ve been so different had our ex-DoF managed to add a couple of capable strikers at some point over 3 transfer windows. Turn a couple of this seasons losses or draws into wins and we’d be safe and looking to improve again in League 1.
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1 hour ago, Wrex said:
That is the thing for me. Carol hired Flitcroft and put him in charge of all things football. That was a terrible mistake and in if itself was poor leadership, delegating responsibility to somebody else. One continuing error that is thankfully over now.
However, even if Moore or another person put the club on their back and carried us back into League One, then it will feel awfully hollow when Carol starts doing the rounds with media interviews when she was so silent during our ongoing long malaise. Bar the love letter to Flickers, of which the less said the better.
To appoint someone better qualified than yourself into a role and delegate responsibility is not poor leadership and is perfectly normal in any business. The problem is that Flitcroft has been able to manipulate Carol from day one, being interviewed as a potential manager the club suddenly adopts a completely new DoF model with him as that DoF. Bingo! Our initial success and the galvanising effect it had no doubt clouded people’s judgement. Clearly Flitcroft was a grade A waffler full of management speak and that possibly appealed to Carol, who knows, but she clearly rated the guy, hence that crazy letter.
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3 hours ago, Rampant Zebra said:
Flitcroft didn't get lucky with the Clarke appointment, he was part of the problem. They tried to prove that they were somehow better than all the other 71 clubs by doing things differently, we overspent on a shiny new rocket which got us to the moon but then ran out of fuel.
I beg to differ. Clarke has a proven track record at the level below so was a solid appointment. Where Flitcroft got lucky was that Clarke replicated that success with us in achieving another promotion, which could in no way be guaranteed let alone in the short timescale it took. I feel your negative bias towards Clarke has blinkered your judgement on this one. Fair to say however that this success also probably played into Flitcroft’s hands in the sense that it made it harder for the powers that be to accept that he wasn’t capable of turning things around. Naturally the manager would get the axe first as is always the case. Then we’re in the wait and see cycle again until finally, after changing several managers and pressure from the fans the lightbulb has had to come on.
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2 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
I think we both agree that she's made unnecessary mistakes which will have cost her serious money. She needs to learn from them...quickly.Maybe the fact that she’s seeing her own millions disappear will focus her mind slightly more than it will me worrying about the price of a couple of season tickets in League 2. Who knows?
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50 minutes ago, JohnJames said:
Call me controversial buts what’s the point of the scoreboard? The replays are <ovf censored> and on for a nano second. However typing this I’ve just realised it’s so you have something to look at rather than the football!
Folk expect a scoreboard and we’ve had one forever. The old one was knackered, plus was in the way if you’re stood at the back of the Hamil….. buts that’s a separate topic.
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1 minute ago, leedsvaliant said:13 minutes ago, Guitar Ray said:Have you ever sacked anyone who’d delivered some success to your business so you maybe felt some loyalty towards? Ever sacked anyone you liked and possibly had dons respect for? Ever sacked anyone without giving them a chance to improve? Ever sacked anyone? That’s the dilemma Carol had. We’re sat here keyboard warrioring with no real connection to the guy so it’s dead easy for us to wield the axe.
I used to work for a guy who did give people a chance, particularly sales people. And he was also pretty friendly with some of them. But he wasn't afraid to get rid of them if they weren't performing for his business. Unfortunately, to be successful, you have to be ruthless at times. Even if you personally like the people.
We have got rid of people. Not soon enough is more the issue.
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2 minutes ago, Spunk Trumpet said:
Under no circumstances should he have been given this January window and under no circumstances, after he got given that dreadful window, should he have been backed and then stick two fingers up to the fans who wanted him gone.
Carol Shanahans loyalty, or whatever it was, towards David Flitcroft, has put our football club back in the 4th division with an absolutely woeful set of football players, whilst she claimed these players were phenomenal and relegation wasn’t in our vocabulary.
Fight her corner all you want.
Shes ultimately to blame.
Goodnight.
Goodnight.
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4 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
I don't think I suggested that she's less of a supporter than anyone else. I was responding to the fact that she's some sort of lifelong fan, she isn't. She's from South Staffordshire isn't she? Hardly Burslem born and bred. Let's not pretend she's a born Vale fan. She might be just as committed but let's not rewrite history.
I totally agree that she has basically thrown away money and we're going to be back where we started. She desperately needs to learn where she went wrong because I don't think she can afford to throw away another 10 million.Who said she’s a lifelong fan? I didn’t and it’s widely on record what her history is regarding football so nothing is being rewritten as far as I can see.
I think you’re understating the fact that someone had to “throw money away” to take the club out of the clutches of Sexman. Maybe you’ve forgotten what was going on around that time. Carol went wrong by trusting David Flitcroft, who was approached for the managers job but somehow managed to convince her we needed a DoF and wangled the job for himself. Flitcroft got lucky in that a decent managerial appointment in DC saw us promoted which would’ve cemented his reputation in Carol’s eyes. From then on it’s been more a typical Flitcroft scenario that we’ve seen.
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25 minutes ago, Spunk Trumpet said:
First sign of failure. I get that. January window last year. We nearly went down.
Second sign of failure. August window. Still no striker. Hello. Massive red flag. That was the point he gets sacked.
Third sign of failure. This January. Nothing changed. No improvement. Ridiculous recruitment. Now the blokes job is untenable.
Febraury comes and she lauds the bloke like he’s the second coming!!
Tell me I’m wrong.
Shes <ovf censored> up.
Have you ever sacked anyone who’d delivered some success to your business so you maybe felt some loyalty towards? Ever sacked anyone you liked and possibly had some respect for? Ever sacked anyone without giving them a chance to improve? Ever sacked anyone? That’s the dilemma Carol had. We’re sat here keyboard warrioring with no real connection to the guy so it’s dead easy for us to wield the axe.
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3 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:11 minutes ago, Guitar Ray said:I wish I had a pound for every time someone told me this or that Vale team is the worst in x number of years. I’d definitely have more than a couple of quid in the bank.
Funnily enough the fans usually see the manager out of his job, obviously based on results and performances. Some clubs fans are more patient than others. Exeter, our opponents today, were in dire straights but they stuck with Caldwell despite results earlier in the season and the grumblings among the fanbase.
We’re relying on kids because our recruitment hadn’t been good enough. That’s on Flitcroft not Carol. He’s an experienced ex-player, ex-manager who should have some idea when it comes to player recruitment. Carol has never kicked a ball in anger, she’s trusted a guy to do a job. He’s failed big time. Her mistake was not recognising the cause of the situation we were in.
Rest assured, Carol is a fan.I think she is a fan but she's pretty new in relative terms. I sat on a table with her and her mate a few years ago when the company i worked for sponsored a game. She had only just started attending games and I think part of it was from a networking point. She's a nice lady and I genuinely believe that she has the best of intentions. But let's not pretend she's a lifelong supporter. I think she's trying to run the club like a corporate business. They're so different. I still don't think she gets that.
I’ve taken people, other than kids, up to the Vale who’ve gone on to become solid fans so what’s your point? There are plenty of folk up there who weren’t born into a Vale supporting family. It’s BS how long you’ve supported a club it’s how much you support your club. It’s different for everyone. Some people will hurt more than others today. Either way nobody spends all that money and puts up with all the stress and 💩 to network.
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4 minutes ago, Spunk Trumpet said:
And with respect Ray, but who employed Flitcroft? And not only backed him but ultimately broke the fanbase with her love in with him?
Flitcroft is a piece of <ovf censored>. I’ve no time for the guy. He’s as smarmy as they come. But I’m sorry, it was Carol who not only employed him but ditched Colin, put him in charge of “all things football” and then very very reluctantly sacked him, as her pathetic son sat in the boxes shaking his head and smiling as 5000 fans sang “David Flitcroft get out of our club”
Its been an absolute shambles and we are finally getting what we deserve due to Carol Shanahans decisions in an 18 month period.
You can try and convince me otherwise but she makes the decisions at the top of the tree.
She is the ultimate reason we are going down.
Her business.
Her football club.
Her mess.
Her relegation.Come out Carol and own it.
If I employ you you get the job because I think you meet the criteria but also I like you. That’s how it usually works. So then I put my trust in you to do the job and initially things go well, in our case we get promoted. It’s then quite hard to just turn around at the first sign of failure and sack that individual who’s delivered in the very recent past but is also someone you have now built up a good working relationship with.
The reasons for CG’s departure have never been made public.
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5 minutes ago, Spunk Trumpet said:
The players are garbage.
Worst I’ve seen in 40 years.The DOF did that.
Four managers in her leadership.
Shes at the top of the tree of this football club.
It’s her business.
She takes the brunt of the blame.She employed Flitcroft.
She wouldn’t listen to fans.
She then divided fans with her open letter.
She is ultimately to blame when you get a judge and jury.
Her decisions have put our club where we are now. Staring down the barrel.
Im happy to be proved wrong.
What I won’t accept is that “she saved the club”. That ship has sailed. Although should never be forgotten.Hard questions need to be asked now though because our club on the pitch is in a shambolic state. We’re relying on 16 and 17 year olds for <ovf censored> sake! That’s madness in any league!
Her decisions. As the owner. Have been nothing short of catastrophic in an 18 month period.
She calls herself a Vale fan. That’s crap.
The likes of me and you and others will always be here.
If she were to sell up tomorrow she wouldn’t go another game.Dont believe the front.
I wish I had a pound for every time someone told me this or that Vale team is the worst in x number of years. I’d definitely have more than a couple of quid in the bank.
Funnily enough the fans usually see the manager out of his job, obviously based on results and performances. Some clubs fans are more patient than others. Exeter, our opponents today, were in dire straights but they stuck with Caldwell despite results earlier in the season and the grumblings among the fanbase.
We’re relying on kids because our recruitment hadn’t been good enough. That’s on Flitcroft not Carol. He’s an experienced ex-player, ex-manager who should have some idea when it comes to player recruitment. Carol has never kicked a ball in anger, she’s trusted a guy to do a job. He’s failed big time. Her mistake was not recognising the cause of the situation we were in.
Rest assured, Carol is a fan.
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1 minute ago, Spunk Trumpet said:
I disagree.
First thing wrong was giving Flitcroft a window last August. Should never have happened.
Second thing wrong was giving Flitcroft this January. Should never have happened.
Third thing wrong was kicking the fans in the teeth with her “I know better than you” open letter and actually backing the man who she employed and we could all see was ruining the club!!
Fourth thing wrong. You don’t openly address the Valiant suite in stating we have phenomenal players because the wags told her!
Fifth thing wrong. And I’m going back a bit here, but her appointment of Andy Crosby. Yes. Flitcroft was in charge. But she came out and said she didn’t even interview anyone!! Madness!
Sixth thing wrong. Letting the regular stalwarts in the paddock, pee on their own feet all season.
Seventh thing wrong. Getting rid of good men in Speedie and Colin Garlick. The soul of this club. And look at the fruits of her Labour now!
I could go on.
And don’t get me wrong. There are many good things that she has done. But like anything in life, if you mess up, you need to be held accountable. And this is on her head.
Do I think she’s a crook? No.
Do I think she means well? Yes.
Do I think I’m these last 18 months she’s made catastrophic mistakes, became fame oriented and taken her eye off the ball? Absolutely.Its not hatred.
It isn’t another Smurthwaite.
But <ovf censored> me has she messed up big time.Your first 6 points come back to Flitcroft and recruitment. The letter, misguided as it was, would never have been written under better circumstances.
The toilets, not great that they aren’t fixed but the issue itself is just one of those unfortunate events that happen with any property which is showing its age and has been neglected.
Your “Good men” may not have been so good. Who knows? People come and go in all walks of life. No disrespect to Speedie but you can hardly say the problems result from the state of the pitch.
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3 minutes ago, Spunk Trumpet said:
If that’s the case then the people she has employed should all be up for the sack as they are not doing their jobs.
Does being more professional involve spunking 10 million quid in 5 years? I beg to differ on that one.
Port Vale Football Club cannot lose money like that unless there is another serious buyer coming in or it was a gamble to get to the championship.
League 2 awaits.
Our structure is way beyond league 2 BUT like we’ve seen with Bradford, you can rot and rot and rot in that league.
It’s a hard road back.They’re employed to do a job, so yes. The fact remains though that it’s the first team that’s truly failed so let’s hold those guys accountable. We’ve already done that. Sacked several managers and finally the DoF. The fact is that recruiting these people is a complete lottery. One look at those clowns next to the incinerator will tell you all you need to know on that score. Whoever comes in can be good or bad, flip a coin. Ultimately though, whoever is in the respective roles, if we get the player recruitment and development right it’ll all fall into place. That’s all Carol needs to focus on. Sounds easy doesn’t it.
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6 minutes ago, Spunk Trumpet said:
Held accountable.
Put things right.
Pretty much the same thing.At the end of the season I would like to see the transparency back when she first took over and a clear message to supporters as to where we are going as a football club.
She got so many things right and she was adored and rightly so.
Shes now got so many things wrong and the buck stops with her and only she can sort this absolute shambles out. That she has ultimately caused.
You keep saying she’s got so many things wrong. It’s nonsense. She got the fundamental wrong, but that was down to one man whose job it was to manage anything that touched a football. If player recruitment had been better we wouldn’t be having this discussion because the rest of it is either a result of that or relatively minor.
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37 minutes ago, Spunk Trumpet said:
I think this is a great post.
I would like to state that let’s not get this topic turned into a slagging off of Carol. It’s more of massive mistakes have been made and the club has become a circus. And now is the time to address it and make sure, under her leadership, we are never in this situation again.
If we lose on Tuesday we are down. Simple as that.
Her negligence and stubbornness cannot ever happen again and she clearly needs help from good people. And not one or two but like TJH says, a group of people. A proper board. To make decisions.
Not some dippy bloke over in the states who wants to put on a shirt when it suits him and she falls in love with him.It’s time this club started acted professionally again from the very very top. Where it clearly hasn’t for a good 18 months.
And one last point.
Feed the area.
Be a good community club.
Be nice.
As fans we are all for that!But….. When we are 22nd in league 1. Hadn’t won a game in god knows how long. And you’re posting a picture of Carol and David smiling because they’ve walked a mile and raised 559 quid, or whatever, for some charity, expect the backlash from the average fan who don’t see this as an IT business. They want heart, passion, commitment and quality on the pitch.
All of which were lacking today. And the majority of the season.
Ultimately Carol, Port Vale Football Club fans couldn’t care less about anything other than two things.
1. To have a team that represents us and gives their all week in week out.
2. A manager and owner who will have our back and tell us the way forward and how our club is going to progress.
As of the 13th of April 2024, we don’t have either. And we are a long long way from getting any of those 2 things in my opinion.
In fairness we are more professional, unfortunately that also costs more money. We have various directors/officers/managers/heads of department/call them what you will, so in theory it isn’t just Carol making decisions it’s a group.
The bottom line is that on the football side our DoF wasn’t up to the job and our owner was too loyal, or as you call it stubborn.
The question is do we stay with the DoF model, so common nowadays, or is there another way to get some football business expertise involved? Failing that it’s back to the owners to make all the footballing decisions.
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Carol Shanahan.
in Port Vale present
Posted
As you say, mistakes happen, and can be forgiven. But what’s to forgive? An error of judgment. So what do you want? Some sort of grovelling apology for that? Why not simply let the club have their inquest, as per Matt Hancock, and state their findings. Discuss. Move forward. End of.